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Old 19-09-2012, 23:00   #226
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Perhaps it is a good idea if contributors to this thread take a breath and think before they post. We have a few rules but the primary one is:

We take the "be nice" rule VERY seriously! We do not tolerate ANY rudeness.

I'm pretty sure that one is self-explanatory.

This thread is too important to be sidetracked, and too important to be closed down. There is a lot of real expertise that should be listened too, not argued with. Therefore, if there are contributors on here who don't understand the "be nice" rule, you can rest assured, your posts will be removed.
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Old 19-09-2012, 23:22   #227
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
No Tony I think you`re missing the point. If you`ve called him on VHF and made passing arrangements, then colregs have already kicked in.

Swinging a smooth arc isn`t always practical when sailing.
OK, If i called him on the radio in a round about way COLREGS already kicked in. And your point being?

Swinging an extremely large radius arc isn't always possible if you are really close hauled, I agree. It has never been a problem before for me, If It were to be, I would just fall off a little and become the stand-on vessel and cross his bow as you would do. Obviously, I would know this well in advance and would not have ever even called to make any other than normal crossing arrangements. I question the idea of crosing anothers bow when close hauled tight enough that I couldn't make an emergenncy turn.
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Old 19-09-2012, 23:56   #228
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Sailing an Arc Clarification

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
..........Sailing an angle or arc is technically not allowed as it violates the 90 degree rule. Also there are always more ships coming and the other issue is crossing the first lane is pretty easy, the second lane (opposite traffic) takes planning.
Let me start by saying that this was based on open sea and not in a channel or shipping lane and no one else in sight.

OK, so now let me clarify this swinging a smooth arc thing. I am not consciously swinging an arc. I am basically aiming at his ass continually and I feel like I am going in a straight line and it would appear to others that I was going in a straight line. If however, you were to actually plot me, I would be making a smooth curve. I dont know if the 90 degree rule would apply if I am crossing his stern in open water, but if it does, I am going straight enough and close enough to 90 degrees that no one would notice the difference.
I don't know why everyone is so obsessed about me crossing someones stern instead of their bow in open water. That is what I like to do. By doing this, there would be so little distance lost as to not even matter. Probably not even 1/4 mile. I like riding and surfing wakes and waves even in a sailboat.

Is there any rule that says that even though I make radio contact and we both agree on crossing signals in open water, that I am not allowed to?

If there is, please let me know. I would be very interested to know.
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Old 20-09-2012, 00:26   #229
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Rule 8 Action to Avoid Collision

To all my critics, tell me where I am going wrong.

Rule 8 Action to Avoid Collision
(a) Any action shall [be taken in accordance with the Rules of this Part and], if the circumstances of the case admit, be positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship. Agreed on crossing procedure via VHF

(b) Any alteration of course and/or speed to avoid collision shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be large enough to be readily apparent to another vessel observing visually or by radar; a succession of small alterations of course and/or speed should be avoided. I am altering course to cross at stern instead of bow. Agreed upon via VHF. There will not be a succession of small alterations. Even if there was, it shouldn't matter because he knows my intentions.

(c) If there is sufficient sea room, alteration of course alone may be the most effective action to avoid a close-quarters situation provided that it is made in good time, is substantial and does not result in another close-quarters situation.Agreed on crossing procedure via VHF

(d) Action taken to avoid collision with another vessel shall be such as to result in passing at a safe distance. The effectiveness of the action shall be carefully checked until the other vessel is finally past and clear. Does not apply

(e) If necessary to avoid collision or allow more time to assess the situation, a vessel may slacken her speed or take all way off by stopping or reversing her means of propulsion. Does not apply

(f) (i) A vessel which, by any of these rules, is required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel shall, when required by the circumstances of the case, take early action to allow sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the other vessel. I am not impeding

(ii) A vessel required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel is not relieved of this obligation if approaching the other vessel so as to involve risk of collision and shall, when taking action, have full regard to the action which may be required by the rules of this part.Does Not Apply
(iii) A vessel, the passage of which is not to be impeded remains fully obliged to comply with the rules of this part when the two vessels are approaching one another so as to involve risk of collision Does Not Apply
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Old 20-09-2012, 01:01   #230
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Re: Sailing an Arc Clarification

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Originally Posted by Tony B View Post
Let me start by saying that this was based on open sea and not in a channel or shipping lane and no one else in sight.

OK, so now let me clarify this swinging a smooth arc thing. I am not consciously swinging an arc. I am basically aiming at his ass continually and I feel like I am going in a straight line and it would appear to others that I was going in a straight line. If however, you were to actually plot me, I would be making a smooth curve. I dont know if the 90 degree rule would apply if I am crossing his stern in open water, but if it does, I am going straight enough and close enough to 90 degrees that no one would notice the difference.
I don't know why everyone is so obsessed about me crossing someones stern instead of their bow in open water. That is what I like to do. By doing this, there would be so little distance lost as to not even matter. Probably not even 1/4 mile. I like riding and surfing wakes and waves even in a sailboat.

Is there any rule that says that even though I make radio contact and we both agree on crossing signals in open water, that I am not allowed to?

If there is, please let me know. I would be very interested to know.
FYI, that is called "homing". You are continually aiming for his stern. If he were stationary in a zero wind, zero current condition you would indeed move in a straight line.
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Old 20-09-2012, 01:58   #231
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Re: Sailing an Arc Clarification

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FYI, that is called "homing". You are continually aiming for his stern. If he were stationary in a zero wind, zero current condition you would indeed move in a straight line.
Yes, exactly!!

I wont be homing when he is 4 miles away, I will be maintaining my original course and speed. Its only when he gets near the point of intersection about 3 or 4 minutes away (probably about a mile and a half or less ) that I will slowly turn to start homing. He is expecting me to do this because we discussed this on the radio. When sailing I am in no hurry so total time lost, if I really gave a crap, wouldn't be more than a minute or so.

In the open ocean, the probability of being on an actual collision course is extremely remote. Bash said he has done this dozen and dozens of times.
I seriously doubt it. He is probably just crossing in front of a larger vessel with a long enough lead time that the possibility of a collision, for all intents and purposes, never existed.

If you do enough open water sailing, you know that you can be out for 7 days and never even see another boat.

Thanks
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Old 20-09-2012, 02:11   #232
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Re: Sailing an Arc Clarification

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Originally Posted by Tony B View Post
In the open ocean, the probability of being on an actual collision course is extremely remote. Bash said he has done this dozen and dozens of times.
I seriously doubt it. He is probably just crossing in front of a larger vessel with a long enough lead time that the possibility of a collision, for all intents and purposes, never existed.

If you do enough open water sailing, you know that you can be out for 7 days and never even see another boat.
It depends on where you sail. I have cruised SW Florida for 15 years, at least a week or two every year, and I have never had a single ship encounter there, I mean, anything closer than probably 5 or 10 miles, in open water. Nothing which ever required me to use my HBC. Sailing coastwise a few miles out, you are not in waters much used by commercial shipping. It's so shallow there that they will be standing much further offshore than you. The only noticeable ship traffic is in and out of Tampa Bay, but that's already not open water and so different situation.

But in the Med, depending on where you are, it's quite different. In the Aegean you might encounter a ship in a way which requires you to determine whether you are on an intersecting course a couple of times on every passage, sometimes more.

In the English Channel, the busiest shipping lanes in the world, you are in unavoidable Colregs situations multiple times on every passage and you are continuously using your HBC. You may be out of sight of land, but hardly ever out of sight of at least one and often multiple ships.
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Old 20-09-2012, 02:51   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony B

Let me start by saying that this was based on open sea and not in a channel or shipping lane and no one else in sight.

OK, so now let me clarify this swinging a smooth arc thing. I am not consciously swinging an arc. I am basically aiming at his ass continually and I feel like I am going in a straight line and it would appear to others that I was going in a straight line. If however, you were to actually plot me, I would be making a smooth curve. I dont know if the 90 degree rule would apply if I am crossing his stern in open water, but if it does, I am going straight enough and close enough to 90 degrees that no one would notice the difference.
I don't know why everyone is so obsessed about me crossing someones stern instead of their bow in open water. That is what I like to do. By doing this, there would be so little distance lost as to not even matter. Probably not even 1/4 mile. I like riding and surfing wakes and waves even in a sailboat.

Is there any rule that says that even though I make radio contact and we both agree on crossing signals in open water, that I am not allowed to?

If there is, please let me know. I would be very interested to know.
One of the major complexities in this thread is that we are all assuming and creating "specific" crossing situations to illustrate our own arguments. Then the parameters all get confused and we forget whose situatn is absed on what assumptions and we have to start all over again.

The three things I think you a saying are

- Pass astern - I have no problem with that when I am give way. When I am sure to be clear I will pass in front. I must if I am to ever get across the strait. If it is close I may make a positive turn (60-90^) to specifically make him pass. I have never done this in a lane but have done this "in the median" to adjust timing.
- Radio hail - in "lonely" situations I would consider using the radio but where I sail there are way to many targets to sort this out, I am also a pilot. The analogy is having every pilot be air traffic control making up their own custom arrivals to an airport. Cant work in busy situations.
- the arc idea - I personally would never use it. You can (and probably will) argue it is not a series of small turns, in violaiton of the reg you cite in your next post, but it is a series of small and subject to misinterpretation turns in my view. Granted your "exception" is that you hailed and agreed to this situation. However, I sail around tons of traffic. It is impossible for all of us to be calling each other working out custom solutions for each cross. The regs work.

I guess I have also reached the point in this thread where there is the blue camp and the ed camp and I cant for the life ofmme figure who is trying to make what point.

It seems there is a group that is sort of saying toss the regs and just stay away from any bigger boat or make up your own crossing rules on the radio. On the other side there is a group saying follow the regs, not into collision because one of the regs is don't collide.

My curiosity on the gross ton rule of thinking is, does a 30 footer give way to a 40 footer? How about a 50 footer? What about a 100 footer? What about a 30 foot sailboat against a 100 foot pleasure yacht vs. a 100 foot bunker ship?

Do I need a table of gross tonnages rules? Or is it the "difference" in gross tonnage that matters? I.e. the 30 footer does not give way to a 40 footer but does give way to a 100 footer. The 40 footer does not give way to the 50 footer but does give way to a 110 footer. That would be a really easy system to get used to.
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Old 20-09-2012, 02:52   #234
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Interesting post Raku, I never realized you had been criticised on CF for stating that "freighters and cruise ships, do not really see sailboats well".

I agree whole heartedly that it is difficult for large ships to see small yachts and we must never forget this. And I agree about the AIS point but I am surprised though about the claim that most maneuverable vessel is to give right of way in all sections of the CRs regarding ROW. My understanding is somewhat different .
Yep, I have found coastal sailing the freighters do their best to steer clear of me. On the other hand in harbours like Newcastle, if you get in the way, the freighters have almost no scope to manoeuvre or stop and are protected by legislation.

In passing, to make life easier for the offshore freighters, I am installing 20 m rated nav lights on my 10 m sailing yacht.
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Old 20-09-2012, 03:30   #235
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Re: Sailing an Arc Clarification

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If you do enough open water sailing, you know that you can be out for 7 days and never even see another boat.

Thanks
Well, when 700 nm north of Kauai bound to Japan I was head to head with a supertanker. We crossed less than 4 nm and that was because he made course correction several miles earlier.

When sailing to Victoria, BC from Honolulu I had a night passing by two steamers running head to tail same direction, opposite direction to me.

When 980 nm out from San Diego bound to Samoa I was overtaking by a steamer at less than 3 miles (no correction by either of us).

800 nm off Cape Mendocino, California south bound I was cut in front of by a factory ship working the fleet.

All of those occured in a two year period.

Oh yeah, how can I forget the car carrier unwilling to make the "$10,000 turn" thereby passing less than 2 miles? I was bare poles drifting in the N Pac high.
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Old 20-09-2012, 04:58   #236
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
My curiosity on the gross ton rule of thinking is, does a 30 footer give way to a 40 footer? How about a 50 footer? What about a 100 footer? What about a 30 foot sailboat against a 100 foot pleasure yacht vs. a 100 foot bunker ship?

Do I need a table of gross tonnages rules? Or is it the "difference" in gross tonnage that matters? I.e. the 30 footer does not give way to a 40 footer but does give way to a 100 footer. The 40 footer does not give way to the 50 footer but does give way to a 110 footer. That would be a really easy system to get used to.
I think there is a misunderstanding between some of us on this point.

Rakuflames posted that more maneuverable vessels should give way to less manueverable ones, as a principle behind the Colregs.

This is correct actually -- the heirarchy of stand-on and give-way types of vessels does come from this basic idea -- sail over motor because it is presumed that a vessel motoring can more easily maneuver than a vessel under sail.

Some people misunderstood her as saying that whoever is actually less manueverable somehow becomes the stand-on vessel, contrary to the Colregs, so that we would be constantly trying to guess who is the more maneuverable in a given situation -- is it the 35 knot Condor ferry? The 8 knot rustbucket freighter? The fast motor yacht? The sailboat under sail? Obviously would be totally impractical if that were a rule, which it definitely is not.

Or maybe she misunderstood something she was told about the Colregs.
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Old 20-09-2012, 05:00   #237
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Re: Sailing an Arc Clarification

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Oh yeah, how can I forget the car carrier unwilling to make the "$10,000 turn" thereby passing less than 2 miles? I was bare poles drifting in the N Pac high.
He probably thought you were motoring!
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Old 20-09-2012, 05:01   #238
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

In Holland, the general accepted rule is commercial craft first. Yachts are considered as being not commercial. Nonetheless I experienced once on a large (100') commercial sailing yacht that the skipper took the right of way.
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Old 20-09-2012, 05:04   #239
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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I am installing 20 m rated nav lights on my 10 m sailing yacht.
A superb idea.

I have been discussing managing crossing situations with 10 professional ship captains and have learned a lot of surprising things which I will write up and post later.

One of the things I learned is that it is a great frustration for them that we have such poor navigation lights. They recommend -- as something near the top of the list (!) of things for us to do, to make encounters with ships safer and easier for them -- installing the most powerful navigation lights we can buy, making sure the lenses are clean, etc., etc. They also recommend sailing with our spreader lights on so that our sails are lit up.
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Old 20-09-2012, 05:16   #240
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Yes, it is. I will do just the same. Additional a red above green on the main mast, skipping the 3-color toplight.
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