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Old 18-09-2012, 15:40   #151
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
But if the big boat isn't paying attention -- or can't maneuver to honor "my" "right of way" -- I'm going to get out of the way.
Yea.

All saying the same thing in different words.

Like above.

If the big boat can't maneuver then according to the rules you do not have the right of .........err........are not the stand on vessel.
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Old 18-09-2012, 15:48   #152
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by conachair View Post
Actually I wasn't aware contacting ships via VHF was not encouraged 'til it came up on another forum not too long ago. From memory some of the ships operators had procedures in place which basically said don't answer the VHF if a yacht calls up. Most of the time anyway. Causes more problems than it solves.



Such a rule would be writing a blank check for liability though. "you're leaving an oil sheen behind you" or "hey you're on fire" seem like things a captain might want to know.
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Old 18-09-2012, 16:16   #153
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by xymotic View Post
Such a rule would be writing a blank check for liability though. "you're leaving an oil sheen behind you" or "hey you're on fire" seem like things a captain might want to know.


Thems not rules, more what ye might like to call guidelines...

If you check the link, though, it was more to do with a fair bit of evidence involving using VHF as a collision avoidance measure which lead to, well, collisions.

Thinking about it, I've never called up a ship for any collision avoidance stuff, ever. Plenty cross english channel passages, which gets a bit busy. But the rules cover it. If you need to call up then something has gone wrong. Easy to see how it would be necessary in closer quarters busy nav areas though.
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Old 18-09-2012, 18:00   #154
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Originally Posted by sarkastic
Colregs state the stand on and give way vessels so that each vessel knows his part in the maneuver to avoid the collision. Colregs are written for the insurance companies to determine who will be paying the bill. In all situations it is up to you to avoid being hit by anything bigger than you. As a Navy veteran I can say that ROW is stated as "Tonnage Rules", if the other ship is that much bigger than you then get out of the way. Like sized vessels can play chicken all they want but it is not wise to play chicken with a train.
No the fact is there are situations where you will be in close proximity to larger vessels. Then you have to play by the rules.

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Old 18-09-2012, 18:17   #155
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Originally Posted by circumnavbute
ok then?? If these big guy's cant see safely and manouvre their boats safely why not ban them from the sea? make it safer for smaller guys .they should not be out there if they pose a hazard to anyone!! think about it!!
A leisure vessel serves no useful function a commercial ship does. If it ever comes to a situation you describe. I take money from you it will not be the big guys that are removed from the ocean.......

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Old 18-09-2012, 18:23   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conachair

Actually I wasn't aware contacting ships via VHF was not encouraged 'til it came up on another forum not too long ago. From memory some of the ships operators had procedures in place which basically said don't answer the VHF if a yacht calls up. Most of the time anyway. Causes more problems than it solves.

Anyway, I've had no need to even consider that course of action since an AIS receiver got fitted. A tweak 4 or 5 miles off is all that's needed, if at all.
What the MCA is giving out about is not specifically contacting ships nor even confirming that the passing manoeuvre is all agrred. It is giving out about agreeing passing procedures contrary to the COLREGS.

So if in a collision situation you call up and confirm he sees you and that you are standing on as required. That's fine. Calling up and agreeing a procedure contrary to the COLREGS is what is frowned upon. Mind you all this MCA stuff is focused on the approaches of big ships.

Dave
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Old 18-09-2012, 18:27   #157
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Gene :^) View Post
I am not arguing, I am just asking and looking to be educated. Is this statement above about the port captain true or is the coast guard just following:

-Rule 10 - Traffic Separation Schemes | Vessel Traffic Services
(j) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane.


And perhaps it seemed the port captain was declaring by certain size when really it was just the case where vessels participating in VTS would be any vessel greater than 20 meters.


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Both. The port captain and local authorities can add their own laws. The entire SF Bay is a traffic separation scheme for larger power driven vessels. The lanes are clearly marked on the charts. The port captain has also declared that no smaller vessel shall impede these larger vessels. I don't remember the displacement for sure but 1600 tons rings a bell.
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Old 18-09-2012, 18:36   #158
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Use channel 13 to hail larger vessels.

Just wanted to say that passing arrangements between larger commercial or other types of commercial passenger or research vessels in busy harbors is very rarely a problem because we all monitor channel 13 and talk to each other if there is any doubt. We hail each other on 13, not 16. The communications are brief such as: "Intintoli, Mare Island, one whistle?" "Intintoli, Mare Island, roger, one whistle." This is a port to port passing arrangement between two high speed ferries each going 38 knots with hundreds of passengers onboard. There is no need to hang on the radio for longer than 10 seconds usually. Listen sometime to how the professionals do this on 13.

I don't understand why so many recreational boaters are so hesitant to get on the radio and hail the vessel that they are getting concerned about. This is mostly how us commercial guys avoid each other when there is any doubt about how we are going to pass each other.

I don't think most recreational boaters even know about channel 13 and that they are welcome to use it as well. This is because I very rarely hear commercial boaters use 13, and I monitor it all the time while underway. I do hear recreational boaters get frustrated that this or that commercial vessel is not answering on 16. 16 is not the channel to get a quick response from a larger vessel as much as it is called the international calling and distress channel.

If you carry an AIS transceiver onboard then it makes it much easier for a commercial vessel to identify which of those sometimes dozens of contacts on their radar screen is talking to them.
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Old 18-09-2012, 18:44   #159
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by David M View Post
Both. The port captain and local authorities can add their own laws. The entire SF Bay is a traffic separation scheme for larger power driven vessels. The lanes are clearly marked on the charts. The port captain has also declared that no smaller vessel shall impede these larger vessels. I don't remember the displacement for sure but 1600 tons rings a bell.
David, you are once again correct. In the SF Regulated Navigation Areas, "Large Vessels" are described as: "any power-driven vessels of 1600 or more gross tons, or tugs with a tow of 1600 or more gross tons."
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Old 18-09-2012, 18:57   #160
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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I don't think most recreational boaters even know about channel 13 and that they are welcome to use it as well. I do hear recreational boaters get frustrated that this or that commercial vessel is not answering on 16. 16 is not the channel to get a quick response from a larger vessel as much as it is called the international calling and distress channel.
Let me add that VHF 13 is best used when you have the vessel in sight. Most modern VHF radios will automatically set themselves to low power transmission when tuned to 13.

The nice thing about using 13 is that you don't have to switch to a working frequency once you've made contact. A few weeks ago I was navigating the Petaluma River mouth at low tide when a tug pushing a large barge came the opposite way. It's a super-narrow channel. I contacted him on 13, he proposed a port-to-port pass, and I agreed, adding that I would be slowing to idle speed because I only had a foot of water under the keel. All was good, and I suspect he was a lot more comfortable with how close I got to him thanks to our brief conversation.
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Old 18-09-2012, 19:13   #161
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Great information Bash.
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Old 18-09-2012, 19:13   #162
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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No the fact is there are situations where you will be in close proximity to larger vessels. Then you have to play by the rules.

Dave
Taking this further when there are other vessels the actions can have a flow on effect. As sailors we often forget that larger vessels have to plan much further ahead in distance often compressed into shorter time frames involving many vessels who are also constrained in their manoeuvrability. Deviation from the rules many throw out the vessels plans to comply with the rules as they relate to other vessels within the planning horizon of the commercial vessel.


If i remember correctly my old man said that one of the super tankers he captained took 35 miles to go from full speed ahead to dead stop when fully loaded. His view was that predictability was more important than convenience.
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Old 18-09-2012, 19:20   #163
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
AND ...

If you "follow the rules" and the result is a collision you could have avoided by departing from "the rules," guess who is to blame.
No true, covered in the regs: "For if there is a risk of collision, a stand on vessel can still be obliged under Rule 2 to give way so as to avoid a collision, if doing so will be effective and is practicable. "
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Old 18-09-2012, 19:27   #164
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Khagan is right, if there is a collision, at least one of the vessels involved broke at least one of the Rules. There is no way around this the way the Rules are written.

Although not defined in the rules when the Stand On vessel is in "extremis", meaning if he does not take action then the chances of there being a collision is high, then the Stand On vessel becomes a Give Way vessel, so in effect there are now two Give Way vessels. This means that if there is a collision then both vessels can be ruled at fault or one vessel partially at fault and the other fully at fault. It is very rare when two vessels that are able to maneuver collide that one is fully at fault and the other is not at least partially at fault.

The most common rule violation I see are Stand on Vessels not holding their course and speed when they are supposed to. I also see a lot of vessels going the wrong way down narrow channels...not staying to the right hand side of the channel.

At night I see a lot of recreational boats with extremely dim lights where there is no way it is close to a one mile or two mile light, or improper light configurations for the situation. A lot of older boats seem to have sun rotted nav light lenses. Boats with these rotted lenses are not legal at night, not if they are not meeting their designed ranges. It is legal to install lights that are brighter than the minimum requirements. I did that on the research boat....it's nice to be seen sooner at night.
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Old 18-09-2012, 19:36   #165
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

@ David, two of my pet peeves!

I was sailing up on Lake Michigan with a couple of friends this summer and we were being over taken by a topsail cutter from our Stbd quarter. The guy at the helm (ASA instructor to boot) suddenly put the helm over to the Stbd and does a u-turn "to get a good picture" of the boat.

Needless to say, the skipper on the other boat wanted to know what the h*** we were doing.
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