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Old 03-11-2009, 07:19   #1
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Fractional Rig - Short-Crewing?

Can I pick someone's brains...mine's single-celled where sailing is concerned. I am interested in a cheap wooden (1959, 13m, draft 1.7m) motor-sailor but the seller is as clueless as me.

The rig:
Oregon pine mast on tabernacle with 7/8 Bermudan rig.
Fixed running backstays.

Stainless steel standing rigging.

Oregon pine rolling boom.

Polyester running rigging

Full set of sails, all of them used in variable condition.

The pics included one of the keel. Could anyone advise me how demanding the rig will be for someone who is inexperienced but is strong and will put in his apprenticeship. We have to spend some money - don't tell me, lots of money... - refurbishing and could we modernise the rig without sacrificing all our arms and legs.

Thanks, Jay

BTW this forum is brill - better than actually sailing for gaining first-hand experience.
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Old 03-11-2009, 07:46   #2
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Polyester running rigging will stretch so will need changing.

Fixed running back stays? Back stays can be fixed or running - not both. Running back stays need more time before you tack to set up and then let off. Not great if you are a novice
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Old 03-11-2009, 07:48   #3
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Hi Jay,
Provided the wood is in good condition absolutely no need to replace with alloy spars, but sound slike you are decideding this without a surveyor. If so that could be bad news.
Suggest with wooden spars and suspect, wooded hull, a quality survey is worth it's weight in gold.
And do not fall fro the 'I know nothing' routine from a vendor:->
It is the easiest way for someone who knows of issues ot avoid having to say anything about them............

Good luck. Lovely looking yacht.

JOHN
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Old 03-11-2009, 07:57   #4
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wooden boat? you know nothing? no survey? a formula for dissapointment!
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Old 03-11-2009, 11:34   #5
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Thanks for the comments. No survey but it is under £9g and being auctioned. The boat was given a major overhaul 18months ago. The hull was stripped and repaired [viz. pic] but they ran out of money and skimped on the electrics and didn't do much with the engine. They chugged around the Greek islands, though...

We realise we have a lot of work but the rig worries me as I don't have the know-how to judge whether we will still have a white elephant whatever we do. Obviously our pockets are not so deep that the sky is the limit. It just seems such a lot of boat for such little money.
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Old 03-11-2009, 19:15   #6
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The backstay looks to be fixed, single stay with insulators for SSB to me.
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Old 03-11-2009, 20:31   #7
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Originally Posted by edsailing View Post
Polyester running rigging will stretch so will need changing.

Fixed running back stays? Back stays can be fixed or running - not both. Running back stays need more time before you tack to set up and then let off. Not great if you are a novice
Are you a racer or are you thinking nylon instead of polyester. All my running rigging is polyester and I believe many if not most cruising boats use polyester running rigging.

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Originally Posted by CharlieCobra View Post
The backstay looks to be fixed, single stay with insulators for SSB to me.
Look at the picture from the bow and you will see two lines that appear to originate at the second spreader that go to the side decks just a little aft of the mast. These could be more backstays. I have seen a couple of cruisers that needed fore/aft support lower down on the mast but didn't want to deal with runners so what would normally be runners are fixed quite far forward. Its a bad angle to provide support, but you don't have to worry about changing the runners.



Changing the rig will be expensive.
Example mast purveyer:
Dwyer Aluminum Mast Company- Manufacturers of Quality Sailboat Masts, Booms, Hardware and Rigging Since 1963.

You probably will not reuse most of the rigging so you'll have to buy that as well.

John
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Old 03-11-2009, 20:58   #8
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I would never consider buying a wooden boat, at any price, without a really complete survey by an experience wood boat surveyor. Regardless of what was done or not done with the boat you could be buying something that will cost you more that you can imagine.

Buyer beware.

From one who has owned a wood boat.
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Old 04-11-2009, 05:54   #9
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Are you a racer or are you thinking nylon instead of polyester. All my running rigging is polyester and I believe many if not most cruising boats use polyester running rigging.



Look at the picture from the bow and you will see two lines that appear to originate at the second spreader that go to the side decks just a little aft of the mast. These could be more backstays. I have seen a couple of cruisers that needed fore/aft support lower down on the mast but didn't want to deal with runners so what would normally be runners are fixed quite far forward. Its a bad angle to provide support, but you don't have to worry about changing the runners.



Changing the rig will be expensive.
Example mast purveyer:
Dwyer Aluminum Mast Company- Manufacturers of Quality Sailboat Masts, Booms, Hardware and Rigging Since 1963.

You probably will not reuse most of the rigging so you'll have to buy that as well.

John
Thanks. Again I am finding that my assumptions - well guesses - are unfounded. I was under the impression that a rig could be tweaked quite a lot without incurring massive costs. does this mean that the boat's current rig would be pretty much the same as it was when the boat was built in 1958!? Does it look to you from the little you can get from the pictures that the rig could be handled by one person or is it undoubtedly more demanding that even a skilled sailor could handle?
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Old 04-11-2009, 06:10   #10
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I would never consider buying a wooden boat, at any price, without a really complete survey by an experience wood boat surveyor. Regardless of what was done or not done with the boat you could be buying something that will cost you more that you can imagine.

Buyer beware.

From one who has owned a wood boat.
Hmmm...a lot of food for thought. I didn't realise that wooden boats could turn into financial quagmires. One sees all these classic boats that have been around since year dot still holding their price but I suppose they have all been owned by fairly rich guys who maintained them at whatever the cost. A bit like classic cars. They become a hobby for people with more money than what most of us think of as sense. The point about this boat is that it had been completely neglected before the couple who refurbished it 18 months ago took it on. The pictures from their before and after album show a hulk. And there is no history of the boat. I suppose this says all we need to know.
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Old 04-11-2009, 06:19   #11
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Hi Jay,
Provided the wood is in good condition absolutely no need to replace with alloy spars, but sound slike you are decideding this without a surveyor. If so that could be bad news.
Suggest with wooden spars and suspect, wooded hull, a quality survey is worth it's weight in gold.
And do not fall fro the 'I know nothing' routine from a vendor:->
It is the easiest way for someone who knows of issues ot avoid having to say anything about them............

Good luck. Lovely looking yacht.

JOHN
Yeah...this seems to be the informed opinion: steer clear. It is an auctioned boat that is currently moored in Turkey, so there is no time for an surveyor's report. What is also significant - well it is now - is that there is no history to the boat. The couple who refitted it 18 months ago have a website of pictures that show a hulk, which presumably they acquired for a pittance, before they went to work on it. We were working on the assumption that no one would spent all that money and time stripping a boat down and re-building it without addressing any fundamental flaws. It doesn't make sense...but wooden boats ['restore to former glory'] seem to trigger people's irrational brain cells.
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Old 04-11-2009, 07:46   #12
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The Purchase may be illadvised as I'm sure you are beginning to realize, however, the other part of your question was as to handling the rig. I see nothing in the photos that would indicate any particular challenge there. The rig seems straight forward and adequate as best can be seen in the photos. Deep draft for stability and not a particularly powerful sail plan as suggested by the fixed backstay. If you proceed make sure there is no yard bill due. Dave
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