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Old 08-12-2015, 10:54   #1
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Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

A balanced boat, with a balanced rudder, 1 finger on the tiller steers her. (Cal or other fin)

VS.

A gripe loving classic cutaway with attached barndoor rudder, low aspect, LOOOONG boom and main. (Albergish)

Could the inherent increasing weather helm in boat number 2 of this comparison, especially as it pipes up and the snot flies until main reef comes into play, be one of the primary reasons she will heave to so well? If so, would a more balanced boat be a challenge to set a heave to in heavier weather?

Please bear with me (no pun intended) I have almost no real experience with either boat. this is an acedemic exercise to help me understand sail boat handling. I am learning.

Thank you!
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Old 08-12-2015, 12:19   #2
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

You can get a full keeled Alberg Style Sailboat to balance just as well as a fin keeled boat by easing the main a bit or using a larger jib.

Then once you start reefing the main the boom length no longer matters since the foot of the sail has been shortened.

The position of the boat can always be adjusted with the sails and rudder after heaving too.

I've heaved too on several occasions but only for a few hours to wait out passing squalls before entering narrow creeks etc.

Some have done it for days.........
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Old 08-12-2015, 12:50   #3
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

Both can balance and both can heave-to. Heaving-to brings two competing forces to bear; the drive of the main to round the boat up and the drag of the backed jib to wind-vane the boat off the wind. How you adjust the two sails to accomplish this will vary from rig to rig and boat to boat, but the principle is the same. A big main (relative to modern rigs) like mine will try to generate more weather helm so I like to balance it with a bigger headsail and reefing the main a little earlier than some. And it will be very well-balanced until the wind pipes up and I have to reef again. But a higher aspect main (shorter in the foot) will still generate adequate lift when heaved-to. Am I answering the question? BTW some who complain about the way their old school boat balances, or doesn't, may not have the mast rake correct. The rake for mine, according to the 55 year-old sail plan is 8.5 inches for example. More modern boats don't have that kind of rake typically.
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Old 08-12-2015, 13:51   #4
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

Force required to be turn the Rudder has as much to do with placement of the rudder shaft along the chord of the rudder as to do with boat balance. A nearly balanced rudder will give little feedback but be easy to turn.
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Old 08-12-2015, 14:29   #5
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

That's right we should clarify that a balanced rudder does not mean you have a balanced boat or balanced helm. A balanced rudder is a design of a rudder, not a state of balanced-ness. wow, where did I learn English?
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Old 08-12-2015, 15:14   #6
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nematon785 View Post

Could the inherent increasing weather helm in boat number 2 of this comparison, especially as it pipes up and the snot flies until main reef comes into play, be one of the primary reasons she will heave to so well?
It has been said that full keel boats heave to so well, as in handle the big seas, is because they put out a longer slick than does a fin keel boat.

Slick being disturbed water that helps flatten the waves a bit as I understand it
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Old 09-12-2015, 00:06   #7
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

thom225,

I think it is best understood as some boats won't heave to, properly, and continue to forereach slowly. This accelerates them out of their protective slick. The boat does make the slick, it just doesn't stay there to take advantage of it. However, I must say that very slow forereaching is fairly comfortable in large seas: the vessel stays heeled, and the main motion your body experiences is slowly, with the waves, up and down. It does get really noisy, though,from the wind.

Ann
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Old 09-12-2015, 05:30   #8
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
thom225,

I think it is best understood as some boats won't heave to, properly, and continue to forereach slowly. This accelerates them out of their protective slick. The boat does make the slick, it just doesn't stay there to take advantage of it. However, I must say that very slow forereaching is fairly comfortable in large seas: the vessel stays heeled, and the main motion your body experiences is slowly, with the waves, up and down. It does get really noisy, though,from the wind.

Ann
Okay.

But then another guy says newer designs will not create a slick:

A properly handled full-keel boat may produce a slick to windward that helps quell breaking waves that threaten her. According to Steve Dashew “Few if any modern boats create a slick.

But back to your point and the OP's question:

Are the fin keel boats continuing to forereach because the Skipper isn't making the boat point into the wind enough by sheeting in enough main etc (or being on the tack that puts the boat more head to wind) or is it due to the fin keel that will not allow the boat to hold steady?

Or is it all about the long boom as the OP is asking?


I like to think it's the looong keel that is the difference since you should be able to make the boat point where you want it too with the sails and rudder(s). (up to a certain point depending on wind and wave) The OP also stipulated his scenario was before reefing was employed.
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Old 09-12-2015, 11:03   #9
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

A lot of sailors seem to think you always have to keep the boat moving and fight the motion and difficulty of cooking or navigating while healed. I heave-too quite often to prepare or have lunch, navigate or just rest.
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Old 09-12-2015, 11:45   #10
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

Hove to is much like a religion: everyone has their own beliefs. You need to go out and experiment with different methods to see which one works best for your boat. We used the backed jib on our little sloop but used a sea drogue with our cutter. On the ketch we used nothing, just let the boat find its way.
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Old 09-12-2015, 12:07   #11
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

I would look at the Pardey system using a small drogue the line led thru a snatch block to a sheet winch, allows one to rotate the boat to the desired angle to the seas. I have used OIL to calm the breaking seas, it does work.
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Old 09-12-2015, 12:21   #12
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

Hi, again, thom225,

Our Yankee 30, with an old fashioned design fin keel would heave to.

Our Standfast 36, would, after fussing with it to sheet the jib so that it was really backed. On that boat, the first time we tried it, she took off on the other tack, the storm jib being very flat, and, though, literally backed, it was necessary to put a snatch block outboard on the toe rail to get it backed adequately.

We have yet to get this boat to heave to properly. The problem is reaching a high enough pointing equilibrium. She, too has an old fashioned fin keel, wide attachment, long enough to balance the boat on. A mainsail driven boat, her boom is pretty long--about 18-1/2 ft. I actually think that with more effort put to the task, that she might heave to okay with her new staysail and 2 reefs, but we haven't tried that, as yet. It might need 3 reefs or the sail to be partially rolled up.

I did not mean to ignore what you wrote to the effect that some boats don't create a slick, I don't see how they could avoid it, they're sliding downwind, how can they not make a slick? Better get someone who knows more than me to explain. I'm not at all sure about boom length being so important. The Standfast was a high aspect rig (short boom, tall mast). What I think matters is the balance you achieve between the sails.

Sorry to not be more helpful. I don't have the physics background that would help me understand better.

Ann
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Old 09-12-2015, 12:43   #13
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

That Yankee 30 does look like a pretty nice boat though. Plus it has a 47% Bal/Disp ratio which seems to me would be a good thing to have when heaving too

That no slick created point was stated by another guy. I just posted his quote.

The OP was saying/thinking (asking if) maybe the old Alberg Style Boats would heave too better because of their long booms which create more weather helm etc than the newer, shorter booms with the high aspect ratio sailplan.

I was pretty much saying it had more to do with the long keel than the boom because you should be able to point close enough regardless of boom length (low or high aspect ratio) as you do when you reef the main still hove too on one of the Alberg style boats (at that point you have reduced the foot length of the sail anyway)

My heave too experience was mainly due to wind and rain not waves though in the situations I've had to do it. (waiting to enter a narrow creek/pass/inlet etc)

On Beach Cats, we "park" between races whereas some mono guys heave to for lunch..............most of us (coastal/weekend warrior style cruisers) I'm thinking are already on autopilot so lunch is well, the same as normal sailing routine.
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Old 09-12-2015, 13:36   #14
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

Do not use OIL to calm seas. They are polluted enough. If you must pollute, use fish oil. It works way better than anything else since it will run out an extremely fine film. Dont dump it into the ocrea, put it into your head and flush occasionally. That way most of it will not get blown away.

The Lin and Larry Pardrey system works for some boats but requires a lot of gear; and during a big storm not something you want to fuss with. Plus if you do not get it right it will sink your boat.
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Old 09-12-2015, 13:45   #15
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

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Originally Posted by reed1v View Post
Do not use OIL to calm seas. They are polluted enough. If you must pollute, use fish oil. It works way better than anything else since it will run out an extremely fine film. Dont dump it into the ocrea, put it into your head and flush occasionally. That way most of it will not get blown away.

The Lin and Larry Pardrey system works for some boats but requires a lot of gear; and during a big storm not something you want to fuss with. Plus if you do not get it right it will sink your boat.
OP was asking about boom length and it's affect when heaving too not which oil to use to make his truck get to 300,000 miles without an engine change or to clean the head with.
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