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Old 09-12-2015, 14:03   #16
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

But Jim does.
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Old 09-12-2015, 14:11   #17
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

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Originally Posted by nematon785 View Post
A balanced boat, with a balanced rudder, 1 finger on the tiller steers her. (Cal or other fin)

VS.

A gripe loving classic cutaway with attached barndoor rudder, low aspect, LOOOONG boom and main. (Albergish)

Could the inherent increasing weather helm in boat number 2 of this comparison, especially as it pipes up and the snot flies until main reef comes into play, be one of the primary reasons she will heave to so well? If so, would a more balanced boat be a challenge to set a heave to in heavier weather?

Please bear with me (no pun intended) I have almost no real experience with either boat. this is an acedemic exercise to help me understand sail boat handling. I am learning.

Thank you!
And you have not asked a question?
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Old 09-12-2015, 14:53   #18
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

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A lot of sailors seem to think you always have to keep the boat moving and fight the motion and difficulty of cooking or navigating while healed. I heave-too quite often to prepare or have lunch, navigate or just rest.
So agree, heaving-to is so much more preferable than bashing about and becoming inclined towards heaving-overboard, a.k.a. hurling, .

I am always amazed that the calming of the boat is accomplished with such ease and speed, albeit sometimes takes a bit of adjustments to get the optimal set and differs with each boat, set of sails, wind and sea conditions, etc.

A balanced rudder makes for less strain to ease over and a keel that runs longer than a fin keel seems to be more stable against wave slaps as it takes more leverage to torque the boat off its heading, whereas my experience has been that a thin keel sometimes acts like a pivot point, seeming to almost become a fulcrum to the incoming waves. But thin deep keels have their advantages also, just not so much when the boat is not making significant or any headway as is the situation when hove-to. Keels [and rudders] do not developing a hydrofoil effect unless there is flow over the surfaces, low or no speed through the water means little or no lift is being developed. The rudder being installed at the end of the boat develops torque from its distance from the center point of turning, which is why it remains comparatively effective even in light speeds.

Okay, a grammatical question on this subject: During sailing, there is "heaving to" and "to heave to" and "to be hove to" but is there a "heaved-to" that would seem to be equal to hove-to. English is my first language, but I still struggle with it even at my age of 58.
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Old 09-12-2015, 15:09   #19
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

A grammatical question has been raised: Heave and Hove to mean the same thing. Heave it or hove it basically means to stop forward progress. Which is what you want in really bad conditions, or to rest, or to just do your household duties on a boat. Some folks want to fore reach, while others advise a dead stop, and a third try to run for it(downwind of course). We have tried all strategies and still find letting the sailboat find its own way with sails down worked for us( 33, 36, and 43 foot sailboats). But then again, we always trimmed our boats so the weight was distributed more towards aft of center.
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Old 09-12-2015, 19:05   #20
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

I'm sure that somewhere in your post is a question about heaving to. If I ignore all the attempts at 'sailor talk' here is what I think you want to know.

Heaving to is coming about without releasing the jib and ending up in a semi stationary position. Adjusting the main and jib is sometimes necessary. The boat should come to rest and not require much sail adjustment.

You will move but should be able to accomplish whatever it is you needed. Sail trim, lunch or a rest.
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Old 10-12-2015, 00:01   #21
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

Thank you all for the replies.

I just finished reading about Lin and Larry and their method of reefed main heaving, and the para anchor rig to keep at 50 degrees to the wind.

Quite interesting about the slick, and its positive effect. I can't help but wonder if that lovely Hess design and all its water line long keel creates quite a slick, and in the same vein, a fin and balanced rudder may not agree with this method at all.

And YIKES about the running bare poles and getting out of control. rounding up becoming less and less of an option, wow.

That's the worst part. I don't have a boat yet! its all reading and academic talk for me, I can't just go out and try it. Soon though!

Last 2 lessons I dared suggest a quick demonstration of a quick hove, say to stop moving. Instructors not interested. Whatever... I digress. I better keep reading, and learn what the instructor is trying to teach. I'm sure heavy weather sailing and storm tactics comes some time in the ASA 103, not quite there yet
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Old 10-12-2015, 08:07   #22
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

Some day, while sailing in big seas, just drain a can of tuna fish packed in oil over the side and watch the effect on the seas. It doesn't take much to create that slick.
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Old 10-12-2015, 08:32   #23
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

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Some day, while sailing in big seas, just drain a can of tuna fish packed in oil over the side and watch the effect on the seas. It doesn't take much to create that slick.
Very true, a little, slowly released will do. Raw fish oil is cheap. Canned tuna expensive.
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Old 10-12-2015, 18:38   #24
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

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I would look at the Pardey system using a small drogue the line led thru a snatch block to a sheet winch, allows one to rotate the boat to the desired angle to the seas. I have used OIL to calm the breaking seas, it does work.
Pardey's book, "STORM TACTICS" is a must. I got a paperback from them at the Chicago show. I re-read it annually. The technique you use is dependent on a lot of conditions from the boat geometry & size to the sea state and lee space. The drogue may work for some but not for others and may only be useful in certain conditions. We, for example, were flat-out told by Larry not to consider a drogue or parachute anchor. We are 58 feet & 35 tons. A proper drogue would rip the hardware off the boat. A parachute for us is 25 feet diameter. Try to retrieve that let alone store it. A series drogue would finish at 1-1/2 inch line with 180 drogues & nearly 600 feet long.

We are modified full keel with skeg-rudder. Our traditional deep V shape adds to the slick created by the keel. We fore-reach really well. We have a storm trysail on a separate track and a storm staysail on a fractional roller furler. The ketch configuration gives us a few more options too. Laying a hull can be done but its a heck of a load on the windward stays.

In STORM TACTICS, it is pointed out that the modern boats with short, deep fins are easy to turn as we all know. This makes it less stable in trying to fore reach or lie a hull. The tendency is to easily spin on the waves. Most of these hulls are also relatively flat which also contributes to this problem. Adding a drogue to this jus may help a light high performance hull behave.

Please read the book. There is no single answer. See the Pardeys at a show if you can.
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Old 10-12-2015, 23:59   #25
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

If you haven't been out on a boat yet to try it your definitely overthinking it, I was slightly confused until I made a 42 sailboat "stop"

It will all click


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Old 11-12-2015, 12:38   #26
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

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Originally Posted by AlwaysFORSAIL View Post
I'm sure that somewhere in your post is a question about heaving to. If I ignore all the attempts at 'sailor talk' here is what I think you want to know.

Heaving to is coming about without releasing the jib and ending up in a semi stationary position. Adjusting the main and jib is sometimes necessary. The boat should come to rest and not require much sail adjustment.

You will move but should be able to accomplish whatever it is you needed. Sail trim, lunch or a rest.
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Old 13-12-2015, 22:52   #27
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

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Originally Posted by nematon785 View Post
Thank you all for the replies.

I just finished reading about Lin and Larry and their method of reefed main heaving, and the para anchor rig to keep at 50 degrees to the wind.

Quite interesting about the slick, and its positive effect. I can't help but wonder if that lovely Hess design and all its water line long keel creates quite a slick, and in the same vein, a fin and balanced rudder may not agree with this method at all.

And YIKES about the running bare poles and getting out of control. rounding up becoming less and less of an option, wow.

That's the worst part. I don't have a boat yet! its all reading and academic talk for me, I can't just go out and try it. Soon though!

Last 2 lessons I dared suggest a quick demonstration of a quick hove, say to stop moving. Instructors not interested. Whatever... I digress. I better keep reading, and learn what the instructor is trying to teach. I'm sure heavy weather sailing and storm tactics comes some time in the ASA 103, not quite there yet
Really? Your instructors wouldn't let you try heaving-to? For crying out loud, you do not need to wait for ASA 103 or 202 or 420 for that. Get a new instructor or just tack some time and don't release the jib sheet. Say "oops, look what I did! I hove-to! Do I graduate the class now?"
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Old 14-12-2015, 04:51   #28
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

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Originally Posted by nematon785 View Post
.

Last 2 lessons I dared suggest a quick demonstration of a quick hove, say to stop moving. Instructors not interested. Whatever... I digress. I better keep reading, and learn what the instructor is trying to teach. I'm sure heavy weather sailing and storm tactics comes some time in the ASA 103, not quite there yet
Were your "last 2 lessons" part of ASA 101?

Certainly nothing wrong with demonstrating during 101 if time permits, but heaving to is a required hands-on skill for 103.
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Old 14-12-2015, 05:07   #29
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

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Originally Posted by nematon785 View Post
Thank you all for the replies.

I just finished reading about Lin and Larry and their method of reefed main heaving, and the para anchor rig to keep at 50 degrees to the wind.

Quite interesting about the slick, and its positive effect. I can't help but wonder if that lovely Hess design and all its water line long keel creates quite a slick, and in the same vein, a fin and balanced rudder may not agree with this method at all.

And YIKES about the running bare poles and getting out of control. rounding up becoming less and less of an option, wow.

That's the worst part. I don't have a boat yet! its all reading and academic talk for me, I can't just go out and try it. Soon though!

Last 2 lessons I dared suggest a quick demonstration of a quick hove, say to stop moving. Instructors not interested. Whatever... I digress. I better keep reading, and learn what the instructor is trying to teach. I'm sure heavy weather sailing and storm tactics comes some time in the ASA 103, not quite there yet
Perhaps your instructors weren't particularly familiar with it? Many coastal sailors are not, and unfortunately it does not always form part of the syllabus of sailing courses. Somewhat rarely actually. When I am teaching I ALWAYS teach heaving to, at a very early stage. My preferred method of introduction, depending to some extent upon which boat/sail configuration I happen to have up, is to get the boat powered up on a hard beat, preferably a wee bit overpressed, and then put the weakest most nervous candidate on the helm (this on occasion can be the beefiest otherwise most confident hairy bloke, as it happens!), have them begin to get comfortable holding her in the groove, and then without warning ask them to let go the helm and sit down…. they usually balk at it a couple of times until I tell them pretty clearly and firmly, again. They do so… she rounds up, feathers, jib backs, main tacks, and then I ask them to steer up to windward, lash the helm, and make a cup of tea for everyone. I then discuss the merits and various techniques of heaving to (there are many, for example my boat heaves to best under a main barberhauled to windward and no headsail at all) while we glide athwart at a knot or so…

That said, few instructors bother to do this. I don't know why.
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Old 14-12-2015, 05:21   #30
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Re: Forgive my ignorance please, but heaving to...

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Perhaps your instructors weren't particularly familiar with it? Many coastal sailors are not, and unfortunately it does not always form part of the syllabus of sailing courses. Somewhat rarely actually.

...

That said, few instructors bother to do this. I don't know why.
Yes, it is surprising how many experienced sailors dont know this basic skill. Im an Instructor Evaluator and this is one of the skills that often is a problem for candidate instructors who show up to an instructor clinic unprepared.

Heaving-to is explicitly in ASA 103 curriculum.
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