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Old 21-04-2016, 12:18   #61
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Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Do you have a lazarette which is separated from the main hull volume? And which drains overboard below from the bottom? If you do, you're a lucky man -- I've never seen such a thing.

My propane locker is unfortunately -- full of propane. Or rather butane.

I seriously considered a gas pump. Not having a place to store it was fatal for me; might not be for others. The maintenance would be a PITA but maybe not fatal. I don't think you could not run it, however, for two years at a time (!), and be sure it would start, no matter how much stabilizer you put in it. In my opinion, you would have to take it out and run it regularly -- at least every couple three months. Change the oil every year. Dump out and replace the gasoline regularly. It's a lot of attention, however you slice it, for a device which you will most likely never use in anger.
Our Catalina 30 aft locker was like that and originally had an alcohol tank for an alcohol stove. (now that crap was scary, makes gas look like a joke). I agree the pump should be run more often but I just started my chain saw with 2 year old stabilized 2 stroke gas in it last month and it ran great, 3 pulls and she fired strong. ( I don't take lightly how easily gas can gum up a carb and I really don't take lightly how effectively stabil works in gasoline, I really should work for them with how much promoting I do for them)

Now before anyone beats me up about the aft locker on our Catalina. I have no idea what it looked like from the factory or how it was modified before we got the boat. Ours was a 1986 Gen 1 we got second hand. There was a small access panel on the floor of the locker that if unscrewed would give you access to the back side of the rudder post and cables but someone had put a rubber gasket around it to keep things from draining into it. There were holes drilled in the transom venting the locker over board.
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Old 21-04-2016, 12:39   #62
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Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

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Yes, I think that's generally right.

It took me a while to realize how much pumping capacity you need to keep up with even a small leak.

I have:

2x 1100 GPH maintenace pumps
2x 4000 GPH main pumps

The ratings of recreational pumps are nonsense so figure half of this, realistically, and only until they clog and/or batteries are flooded and shorted out. So roughly 20,000 liters per hour.
Wow, I may have to amend my statement:

Quote:
none of the electric bilge pumps aboard [most] recreational boats have a chance of keeping up
You have a lot more capacity than most.

20,000L/hour should be able to keep up with one 2" hole 1' BWL, e.g.
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Old 21-04-2016, 13:08   #63
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Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

So how many seconds does it take to setup and activate all the pumps in this system.

Maybe the checklist should include a section: When not to engage in any pumping activity apart from flipping a switch and concentrate on using the hull repair kit first.
Say in a situation where one one runs into container or gets rammed and get a equivalent to 10" d hole, that is a easy 2000 gal a minute or 100.000 an hour, its going to flood anyway if the hull is not compartmentalized or the hole fixed somewhat within 2-3 minutes.
Who is in charge of having the boat list away from breached side, maybe with something heavy at the end of a boom, like a generator.

I am all for big pumps but if the whole pump out gear gets so complicated or heavy that it would contribute to the inflow of water, stability of the boat...
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Old 21-04-2016, 13:20   #64
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Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

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Originally Posted by On The Water View Post
So how many seconds does it take to setup and activate all the pumps in this system.

Maybe the checklist should include a section: When not to engage in any pumping activity apart from flipping a switch and concentrate on using the hull repair kit first.
Say in a situation where one one runs into container or gets rammed and get a equivalent to 10" d hole, that is a easy 2000 gal a minute or 100.000 an hour, its going to flood anyway if the hull is not compartmentalized or the hole fixed somewhat within 2-3 minutes.
Who is in charge of having the boat list away from breached side, maybe with something heavy at the end of a boom, like a generator.
If you're taking on that much water then you abandon ship and grab what you can and you wouldn't have time to read a check list. Common sense and practicallity can't be written into a check list.


Quote:
I am all for big pumps but if the whole pump out gear gets so complicated or heavy that it would contribute to the inflow of water, stability of the boat...
what are you even referring to????
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Old 21-04-2016, 13:56   #65
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Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

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If you're taking on that much water then you abandon ship and grab what you can and you wouldn't have time to read a check list. Common sense and practicallity can't be written into a check list.
It is not common sense to dive head first into a life raft whenever there is a problem.
I would not be so fast to abandon ship, the OP already has pumps to deal with half the inflow of that size at around 50.000 gallons a hour.
As the OP loves checklists maybe there is a place in them for healing the boat, bringing the inflow of water to 20.000 an hour and fixing the hole instead of wasting 60 seconds to starts some pumps and 3 minutes to start the diesel pump, or splinting the crew to do all 3 tasks, heal, fix and pump.

I am not for emergency checklists on yachts myself but have nothing against someone using them.

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I am all for big pumps but if the whole pump out gear gets so complicated or heavy that it would contribute to the inflow of water, stability of the boat...
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what are you even referring to????
The OP is thinking of installing extra generators up high changing the CG and adding weight, separate diesel driven pumps also adding weight

The more your righting moment gets messed with extra weight up high the harder it is to deal with a situation as a massive hull breach, the extra weight dosen't help either, so the benefits of it should be at least thought of.
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Old 21-04-2016, 14:04   #66
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Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

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If you're taking on that much water then you abandon ship and grab what you can and you wouldn't have time to read a check list. Common sense and practicallity can't be written into a check list.
Flooding Checklist:

#1. If you are standing in chest deep water, abandon checklist.
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Old 21-04-2016, 14:53   #67
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Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

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Flooding Checklist:

#1. If you are standing in chest deep water, abandon checklist.
You got me apparently it can be.


Although I agree with S.O.P's, so in turn, a form of check list. All I can think of when you get into detailing and emergency is a story my wife told me.

She is a Physician Assistant in a cardiology step down unit at a hospital. The P.A.'s run the unit at night and there is a doctor on call if needed but they regularly handle codes and emergencies all by themselves. One night a new resident was on the floor when someone started coding. As he was "in charge" everyone rushed in and waited anxiously for his orders. He stood at the side of the bed holding his laminated Advanced Cardiac Life Support cheat sheet, shaking so badly he couldn't even read it. As the patient was getting worse and worse the nurses and P.A.s started feeding him info of what they needed to hear from him. Such as "tell me you want x drug, tell me you want x drug, TELL ME YOU WANT X DRUG" followed by "yes, that's right, give him X drug"

Practicing the SOP or check list is the key, but obviously the check list is needed to develop a sop.
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Old 21-04-2016, 15:10   #68
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Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

Quote:
Originally Posted by On The Water View Post
It is not common sense to dive head first into a life raft whenever there is a problem.
I would not be so fast to abandon ship, the OP already has pumps to deal with half the inflow of that size at around 50.000 gallons a hour.
As the OP loves checklists maybe there is a place in them for healing the boat, bringing the inflow of water to 20.000 an hour and fixing the hole instead of wasting 60 seconds to starts some pumps and 3 minutes to start the diesel pump, or splinting the crew to do all 3 tasks, heal, fix and pump.

I am not for emergency checklists on yachts myself but have nothing against someone using them.




The OP is thinking of installing extra generators up high changing the CG and adding weight, separate diesel driven pumps also adding weight

The more your righting moment gets messed with extra weight up high the harder it is to deal with a situation as a massive hull breach, the extra weight dosen't help either, so the benefits of it should be at least thought of.


I actually think the main point here is very good and very important -- you can't afford to waste time futzing around in such a situation. When you need the pumps you need them NOW.

That's another reason why I didn't want a gasoline pump. Imagine -- rousting it out of a special locker somewhere, and trying to start it, after you haven't used it and probably haven't thought about it in two years. Getting hoses rigged up. Fueling it? You're wasting precious time.


You did not however read my post carefully. I already HAVE a generator mounted above the waterline. A three cylinder, low speed, heavy duty diesel generator, a 6.5kW Kohler. It take two seconds to start it, and another 5 seconds to flip the changeover switch and plug in the trash pump. Meanwhile the four 24v DC pumps all work automatically so 10,000 gph (theoretically; probably realistically half that) is already online.

I think the question is a very good one, and I think this system passes that test.

It would be even better if the trash pump were permanently installed, but no way in hell to permanently install a 3" discharge hose -- with antisyphon loop to boot. But the trash pump is already in place in the bilge, so all you have to do is pull out the fire hose and throw it out the companionway. I think it could be online in 20 seconds or less. And that was one of the reasons why I chose that rather than some others.
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Old 21-04-2016, 15:15   #69
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Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

Quote:
Originally Posted by ontherocks83 View Post
You got me apparently it can be.


Although I agree with S.O.P's, so in turn, a form of check list. All I can think of when you get into detailing and emergency is a story my wife told me.

She is a Physician Assistant in a cardiology step down unit at a hospital. The P.A.'s run the unit at night and there is a doctor on call if needed but they regularly handle codes and emergencies all by themselves. One night a new resident was on the floor when someone started coding. As he was "in charge" everyone rushed in and waited anxiously for his orders. He stood at the side of the bed holding his laminated Advanced Cardiac Life Support cheat sheet, shaking so badly he couldn't even read it. As the patient was getting worse and worse the nurses and P.A.s started feeding him info of what they needed to hear from him. Such as "tell me you want x drug, tell me you want x drug, TELL ME YOU WANT X DRUG" followed by "yes, that's right, give him X drug"

Practicing the SOP or check list is the key, but obviously the check list is needed to develop a sop.
Anyone who's been in a complex emergency knows the incredible value of checklists.

When there's not a second to lose, you can't afford to stop and try to figure out which steps to go through in what order.

That's why pilots have checklists, for example.

Having a checklist is not enough by itself -- you need to have practiced it and know it in muscle memory, unlike the doctor above. And of course in appropriate cases, you throw the checklist out the window. There's no such thing as a checklist which covers every possible case.

But flooding is a case where you really need it in my opinion. Water is rushing in, seconds count, what do you do first? Second? Third? You don't have time to figure it out on the spot; you need to have figured it out beforehand and embodied what you figured out in your checklist.

Abandon ship, and man overboard, are two other cases where you really need to have designed the process ahead of time, and not make it up on the spot.
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Old 21-04-2016, 15:22   #70
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Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

Quote:
Originally Posted by On The Water View Post
So how many seconds does it take to setup and activate all the pumps in this system.

Maybe the checklist should include a section: When not to engage in any pumping activity apart from flipping a switch and concentrate on using the hull repair kit first.
Say in a situation where one one runs into container or gets rammed and get a equivalent to 10" d hole, that is a easy 2000 gal a minute or 100.000 an hour, its going to flood anyway if the hull is not compartmentalized or the hole fixed somewhat within 2-3 minutes.
Who is in charge of having the boat list away from breached side, maybe with something heavy at the end of a boom, like a generator.

I am all for big pumps but if the whole pump out gear gets so complicated or heavy that it would contribute to the inflow of water, stability of the boat...
As I said -- this is a very good and very important point.

The answer to the question is 4x 24v pumps operate automatically. So they are already running when the bilge alarm goes off. 5000 or 6000 (realistic) gallons per hour.

To get my generator started and trash pump online would take about 20 seconds I guess.

1. Start generator
2. Pull up sole plate at foot of companionway (the one which is not screwed down), pull out fire hose and throw it out the companionway [probably better to have someone holding and controlling it, but as minimum plan in a hurry, this will work].
3. Take power cord and plug it into the emergency box on top of the generator.
4. Flip changeover switch.

Done.

No starting engines, futzing in lockers, hooking up hoses, carrying the pump into position, etc.
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Old 21-04-2016, 15:38   #71
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Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

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It would be even better if the trash pump were permanently installed, but no way in hell to permanently install a 3" discharge hose -- with antisyphon loop to boot. But the trash pump is already in place in the bilge, so all you have to do is pull out the fire hose and throw it out the companionway. I think it could be online in 20 seconds or less. And that was one of the reasons why I chose that rather than some others.
I was going to bring up the elimination of antisyphon loops of emergency pumps in another thread but declined.
In a few of my boats I have set the discharge of the emergency pumps direct to the cockpit, relying on the over 2 inch cockpit drains that discharge above the waterline to to take care of the bilge water.
Easy installation as the deepest part of the bilge is usually close to the front end of the cockpit, short run one 90 degree turn with a fitting, no kinks etc.
The reason i did not post that was, the trash and possible oil in the bilge getting into the cockpit and making it slippery at the most inappropriate time.

In the boats I have had where it has been feasible to do and definitely not all of them I prevent oil from the engine getting into the main bilge by any cost, mainly by having the engine compartment sides come above WL for various other reasons as well.


You brought up trash getting into pumps in a case of floding, that is also a issue one can address, i like dry bilges, no condensation and vacuumed for dog hair once a week or so, it is not easy on a boat not designed specifically for that but doable, maybe a bit expensive as it requires a lot of alterations on a standard boat
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Old 21-04-2016, 15:51   #72
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Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

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Originally Posted by On The Water View Post
I was going to bring up the elimination of antisyphon loops of emergency pumps in another thread but declined.
In a few of my boats I have set the discharge of the emergency pumps direct to the cockpit, relying on the over 2 inch cockpit drains that discharge above the waterline to to take care of the bilge water.
Easy installation as the deepest part of the bilge is usually close to the front end of the cockpit, short run one 90 degree turn with a fitting, no kinks etc.
The reason i did not post that was, the trash and possible oil in the bilge getting into the cockpit and making it slippery at the most inappropriate time.

In the boats I have had where it has been feasible to do and definitely not all of them I prevent oil from the engine getting into the main bilge by any cost, mainly by having the engine compartment sides come above WL for various other reasons as well.


You brought up trash getting into pumps in a case of floding, that is also a issue one can address, i like dry bilges, no condensation and vacuumed for dog hair once a week or so, it is not easy on a boat not designed specifically for that but doable, maybe a bit expensive as it requires a lot of alterations on a standard boat

Clogging is a huge problem which most people don't expect.

No matter how dry and clean your bilges are, all kinds of carp will appear in the bilge water, as soon as the level gets above normal. It's amazing how much comes out. It's because s*** famously rolls downhill, so all kinds of debris ends up in the bilge and you will never see and clean it all, and lots of it ends up in places too high to be washed out in normal circumstances.

I found this out almost by accident and now intentionally get my bilge level up quite high from time to time (with fresh water) just to flush this stuff out.

Figure on cleaning off the screen regularly during an emergency. My large 24v pumps are on plastic pipes (very deep bilge; not possible to reach to the bottom of it) so they can be pulled out and cleaned.


The trash pump is a macerating one and will deal with solids up to 3" in diameter, so no screen to clean.


I bet plenty of boats have been sunk by clogged bilge pumps.


Cockpit discharge no good for my boat, as my boat has terrible cockpit drains. A rare design flaw in the work of a designer known for attention to detail (Bill Dixon), but he screwed the pooch on the cockpit drains. I've had bathtubs which drain better than my cockpit.
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Old 21-04-2016, 15:53   #73
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Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

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If you're taking on that much water then you abandon ship and grab what you can and you wouldn't have time to read a check list. Common sense and practicallity can't be written into a check list.




what are you even referring to????
I like check lists. I don't always write them down, but they exist. The ops boat sounds very complicated. I think a flooding check list is very sensible.

How do you remember everything without a checklist?

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Old 21-04-2016, 16:17   #74
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Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

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Do not forget the old adage: "There is no better bilge pump then a scared man with a bucket."
I disagree with this. I was on a friends 30 ft. sailboat with a bilge pump that failed because the hose did not have a vented loop and kept siphoning back until the pump failed. When the problem was discovered the floorboards were floating. I was much younger then and in pretty good shape. Getting the bucket tossed out the companion way in a sea way was quickly exhausting. Luckily we were close to a dock with shallow water and tied up with the keel touching the bottom.
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Old 21-04-2016, 16:24   #75
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Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

Personally I am happy enough to focus on having a really good damage control kit, and a simple boat with a minimum of through hulls.
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