Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 21-04-2016, 09:06   #46
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,766
Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Years ago I saw a suggestion to tee a hose (with a ball valve) off the raw water inlet hose to the bilge. In case of flooding open the valve and close the raw water intake. Keep the engine running. Instant bilge pump.

I have not seen any installation that was like this.
It's fairly common. Groco even make a strainer and diverter valve for this.


I wouldn't do it, however.

All kinds of carp floating around in bilge water during a flooding incident -- you want that in your raw water system?

And the pumping capacity is very small.

No thanks.
__________________

__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2016, 09:11   #47
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Lake Belton, TX, USA, Earth: 3rd rock from the Sun
Boat: Vagabond 14
Posts: 422
Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Years ago I saw a suggestion to tee a hose (with a ball valve) off the raw water inlet hose to the bilge. In case of flooding open the valve and close the raw water intake. Keep the engine running. Instant bilge pump.

I have not seen any installation that was like this.
Another problem with this...

If it takes care of the flooding, you could suddenly have no engine cooling.
__________________

__________________
TurninTurtle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2016, 09:12   #48
Registered User
 
ontherocks83's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Boat: Checkmate Strobe 201
Posts: 1,593
Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
And my list looks like this:
1) start the pumps,
2) make sure the engine (or genset) is not flooded,
3) start the engine (or genset),
4) find the leak,
5) limit the flow,
6) cool down, reassess, readjust.

You want deep bilge pumps that are capable of pumping out your boat displacement in 10 to 15 minutes.

b.
I completely agree with start the pumps as #1. Yes I get it that you need to find the leak but your pumps should be set up so that starting takes seconds (i'll explain in a bit), as soon as they are started and working you are buying time. No matter what the leak is the pumps just extended your time frame before becoming over whelmed with water.

Here is my thought pattern. 4 types of pumps total.

Electric bilge pumps x2 , engine belt driven pumps (one one engine and one on gen if equipped), engine shaft driven pump X1, and gas powered stand alone dewatering pump x1.

Here is a description about the pumps that I wrote on another thread about this topic.

The blue one bolts around your drive shaft and is running anytime the boat is in gear. The case does not actually touch the impeller so there are no parts that wear out and when not pulling water it acts as a high volume bilge blower. It is capable of a staggering 37,000 gal/hr at 1500 rpms

The Black and bronze one runs off a drive belt on the engine and is engaged by a manual clutch or you can also get one that is turned on by any 12v source. it can move 3500 gal/hr at 1500 rpm.

The honda is self explanatory and that particular size moves 4400 gal/hr. You can get bigger models if you can fit them. I intially like this one because it is portable and can be stored anywhere until needed. Just make sure you use Stabil in the gas so it doesnt gum up. Maintenance is crucial on this one. Bad gas could equal no dewatering.


In the event of an emergency the 2 12v bilge pumps would have already been running and the high water alarm would have activated when the second bilge pump turned on.

Step 1: I turn on the engine and generator and flip the 2 switches to the belt driven pumps (I now have 7000 gal/hr being dewatered in the first 20-30 seconds)

Step 2: Put the boat in gear. If conditions allow and you can make headway then, (I now have an additional 37,000 gal/hr of dewatering capability in the first 35 seconds)

Step 3: If water is receeding look for leak, if water is still rising, deploy honda gas pump. (with practice this may take 1 to 1 1/2 minutes.(now I have an additional 4,400 gal/hr in the first 1 1/2 to 2 minutes)

(Theoretical grand total of 48,400 gal/hr dewatering in the first 2 minutes or less not including the 12V bilge pumps.)

obviously with a crew then someone can be assigned to starting pumps First and you can look for leaks simultaneously.

so quick recap

Start engine and gen, Flip 2 switches, Put trans in gear, Deploy gas pump.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	bilge-upper-lower-impeller.jpg
Views:	59
Size:	226.2 KB
ID:	122940  
Attached Images
  
__________________
-Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum
-Molon Labe
ontherocks83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2016, 09:15   #49
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurninTurtle View Post
Another problem with this...

If it takes care of the flooding, you could suddenly have no engine cooling.
The bilge water is passing through the heat exchanger.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2016, 09:17   #50
Registered User
 
ontherocks83's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Boat: Checkmate Strobe 201
Posts: 1,593
Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurninTurtle View Post
Another problem with this...

If it takes care of the flooding, you could suddenly have no engine cooling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
The bilge water is passing through the heat exchanger.
i.e. it ran out of bilge water then there is no more cooling water supply
__________________
-Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum
-Molon Labe
ontherocks83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2016, 09:21   #51
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

Quote:
Originally Posted by ontherocks83 View Post
i.e. it ran out of bilge water then there is no more cooling water supply
Running out of bilge water is the idea.

If that happens, open the raw water intake and close the ball valve to the bilge.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2016, 09:51   #52
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 429
Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

In another post you mentioned some of your AC mains connectors.

Generator being located high above the waterline might not be enough if cable connectors are capable of blowing a fuse, breaker or generator alternator windings when immersed or possibly even just splashed with salty.

Main engine might run for longer if a snorkel could be arranged like the 4x4 offroaders use. Air intake brought outside the engine room might even improve engine efficiency in hot weather.

Might give a thought to the possibility of newly-floating/falling/flying objects damaging fuel lines/filter bowls etc. and shutting everything down in an instant.

Looking at the video of the crew unable to find the leak I wondered if a dye marker in the sea might help locate the leak if crew were quick enough to spot the dye before it spread.

Or whether the loom of a white flare in the water outside the boat might be seen from inside through a hole in the hull.

Last resort & slim-to-none chance of working I suppose but given enough time worth a try maybe.
__________________
unclemack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2016, 10:09   #53
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Lake Belton, TX, USA, Earth: 3rd rock from the Sun
Boat: Vagabond 14
Posts: 422
Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

bilge leaking... add flare... watch residual oil/fuel ignite.

I'd be careful about the flare idea.

A bright floating light might be a good idea though.
__________________
TurninTurtle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2016, 10:31   #54
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,766
Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemack View Post
In another post you mentioned some of your AC mains connectors.

Generator being located high above the waterline might not be enough if cable connectors are capable of blowing a fuse, breaker or generator alternator windings when immersed or possibly even just splashed with salty.

Main engine might run for longer if a snorkel could be arranged like the 4x4 offroaders use. Air intake brought outside the engine room might even improve engine efficiency in hot weather.

Might give a thought to the possibility of newly-floating/falling/flying objects damaging fuel lines/filter bowls etc. and shutting everything down in an instant.

Looking at the video of the crew unable to find the leak I wondered if a dye marker in the sea might help locate the leak if crew were quick enough to spot the dye before it spread.

Or whether the loom of a white flare in the water outside the boat might be seen from inside through a hole in the hull.

Last resort & slim-to-none chance of working I suppose but given enough time worth a try maybe.
To protect the generator, I will install, as I wrote, a box with changeover switch, right on top of the generator, which isolates the generator from the whole AC system of the boat. Like that, the generator would run until the decks are literally awash. So flooding can't short it out until we're already in the life rafts. That's by far the most reliable power source for high volume pumping that I've been able to think of, and that's why I settled on that versus the other alternatives (a) boat DC system; (b) external gasoline power; (c) external diesel power.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2016, 10:35   #55
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

Do not forget the old adage: "There is no better bilge pump then a scared man with a bucket."
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2016, 10:38   #56
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,766
Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

Quote:
Originally Posted by ontherocks83 View Post
I completely agree with start the pumps as #1. Yes I get it that you need to find the leak but your pumps should be set up so that starting takes seconds (i'll explain in a bit), as soon as they are started and working you are buying time. No matter what the leak is the pumps just extended your time frame before becoming over whelmed with water.

Here is my thought pattern. 4 types of pumps total.

Electric bilge pumps x2 , engine belt driven pumps (one one engine and one on gen if equipped), engine shaft driven pump X1, and gas powered stand alone dewatering pump x1.

Here is a description about the pumps that I wrote on another thread about this topic.

The blue one bolts around your drive shaft and is running anytime the boat is in gear. The case does not actually touch the impeller so there are no parts that wear out and when not pulling water it acts as a high volume bilge blower. It is capable of a staggering 37,000 gal/hr at 1500 rpms

The Black and bronze one runs off a drive belt on the engine and is engaged by a manual clutch or you can also get one that is turned on by any 12v source. it can move 3500 gal/hr at 1500 rpm.

The honda is self explanatory and that particular size moves 4400 gal/hr. You can get bigger models if you can fit them. I intially like this one because it is portable and can be stored anywhere until needed. Just make sure you use Stabil in the gas so it doesnt gum up. Maintenance is crucial on this one. Bad gas could equal no dewatering.


In the event of an emergency the 2 12v bilge pumps would have already been running and the high water alarm would have activated when the second bilge pump turned on.

Step 1: I turn on the engine and generator and flip the 2 switches to the belt driven pumps (I now have 7000 gal/hr being dewatered in the first 20-30 seconds)

Step 2: Put the boat in gear. If conditions allow and you can make headway then, (I now have an additional 37,000 gal/hr of dewatering capability in the first 35 seconds)

Step 3: If water is receeding look for leak, if water is still rising, deploy honda gas pump. (with practice this may take 1 to 1 1/2 minutes.(now I have an additional 4,400 gal/hr in the first 1 1/2 to 2 minutes)

(Theoretical grand total of 48,400 gal/hr dewatering in the first 2 minutes or less not including the 12V bilge pumps.)

obviously with a crew then someone can be assigned to starting pumps First and you can look for leaks simultaneously.

so quick recap

Start engine and gen, Flip 2 switches, Put trans in gear, Deploy gas pump.

I seriously considered and rejected all of these pump types for the following reasons:


1. Gasoline powered freestanding pump is attractive because it does not depend on any single boat system. That's good. Also you can get quite powerful ones. That's also good. The bad, though, is fatal: (a) you can't store the pump inside the hull volume because of the dangers of gasoline; (b) if not used regularly gasoline engines are prone to failure to start because of gumming up of the carbureter. You can of course put in Stabilizer and the run them regularly, maintain them, re-stabilize them, etc., etc., but that is far too much brain damage, and then plus the very serious storage problem -- where will you keep it? Even on my large boat, I do not have dry storage outside the main hull volume for this.

2. Engine or driveshaft powered. Engine driven (like the Jabsco) is maybe ok as an original install, but expensive and PITA to retrofit. Not such huge pumping capacity. Driveshaft driven requires very large hose, antisiphon loop, large hole in the transom -- not really possible on my boat or extremely difficult and expensive. Big big disadvantage of both -- if the flooding stops the engine, you're SOL. My main engine is below the waterline. So for me anyway (since I have a large genset above the waterline), these are much inferior to the large AC trash pump.

3. Diesel powered freestanding pump. This can be stored in a locker or lazarette since there's no gasoline, so one fatal flaw of gasoline pump eliminated. All the advantages of gasoline pump. But quite heavy, heavier than the gasoline pumps, and you still must maintain them and run them regularly.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2016, 10:43   #57
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,766
Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Do not forget the old adage: "There is no better bilge pump then a scared man with a bucket."
Funny, but bullocks.

No manual method can move enough water to make much of a difference in a real flooding emergency. And the scared man will be exhausted in 10 minutes and useless for any other purposes. I have buckets, of course, but they don't figure in my flooding emergency plan except as a desperate last resort in case everything else fails, but realistically, if everything else fails, the energy would probably be better used launching the liferafts.

I have a Whale Gusher Model 10 manual bilge pump, but I consider it basically for decoration. I can switch it between engine bilge and main bilge.

I don't use it with salt water because it has a horrible design defect -- it's made of poorly painted die cast alu, and if you leave salt water in it, the valve seats corrode and disable the pump Stupid, virtually useless device.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2016, 10:44   #58
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 429
Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
To protect the generator, I will install, as I wrote, a box with changeover switch, right on top of the generator, which isolates the generator from the whole AC system of the boat. Like that, the generator would run until the decks are literally awash. So flooding can't short it out until we're already in the life rafts. That's by far the most reliable power source for high volume pumping that I've been able to think of, and that's why I settled on that versus the other alternatives (a) boat DC system; (b) external gasoline power; (c) external diesel power.
I'm amazed I remembered you'd mentioned the height of your genny in this thread...
not much hope I'd remember a detail you posted in another thread aeons ago
__________________
unclemack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2016, 11:44   #59
Registered User
 
ontherocks83's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Boat: Checkmate Strobe 201
Posts: 1,593
Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I seriously considered and rejected all of these pump types for the following reasons:


1. Gasoline powered freestanding pump is attractive because it does not depend on any single boat system. That's good. Also you can get quite powerful ones. That's also good. The bad, though, is fatal: (a) you can't store the pump inside the hull volume because of the dangers of gasoline; (b) if not used regularly gasoline engines are prone to failure to start because of gumming up of the carbureter. You can of course put in Stabilizer and the run them regularly, maintain them, re-stabilize them, etc., etc., but that is far too much brain damage, and then plus the very serious storage problem -- where will you keep it? Even on my large boat, I do not have dry storage outside the main hull volume for this.

2. Engine or driveshaft powered. Engine driven (like the Jabsco) is maybe ok as an original install, but expensive and PITA to retrofit. Not such huge pumping capacity. Driveshaft driven requires very large hose, antisiphon loop, large hole in the transom -- not really possible on my boat or extremely difficult and expensive. Big big disadvantage of both -- if the flooding stops the engine, you're SOL. My main engine is below the waterline. So for me anyway (since I have a large genset above the waterline), these are much inferior to the large AC trash pump.

3. Diesel powered freestanding pump. This can be stored in a locker or lazarette since there's no gasoline, so one fatal flaw of gasoline pump eliminated. All the advantages of gasoline pump. But quite heavy, heavier than the gasoline pumps, and you still must maintain them and run them regularly.
I appreciate your view but I have to respectfully disagree at least with the issue with the gas pump. An aft lazarette with a drain hole or a modified propane locker would solve the problem. The pump is "roughly" 1 ft x 1 ft x 1ft in dimensions so it does not take up much space. And maintenance is simpler then anything. Stabil will keep gas good for at least 2 years. That means you can run it once every fall to be safe and if you forget one year its ok because its good for 2. Not much effort there at all. Add stabil, run engine, repeat 2 years later.

I'm not trying to change your opinion I just don't want it to be condemned outright as I don't think your negatives are 100% accurate. (not arguing just debating)

As far as the Jabsco and drive shaft driven pumps, your point about install and more so about if the engine dies, is absolutely correct. The reason I like them though is that the De-watering plan has 4 redundant pumps contained over 3 seperate propulsion systems. It gives plenty of back ups upon back ups. As far as install, well yes that depends on your boats configuration if it is possible.
__________________
-Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum
-Molon Labe
ontherocks83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2016, 11:53   #60
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,766
Re: Flooding Emergency -- Checklist

Quote:
Originally Posted by ontherocks83 View Post
I appreciate your view but I have to respectfully disagree at least with the issue with the gas pump. An aft lazarette with a drain hole or a modified propane locker would solve the problem. The pump is "roughly" 1 ft x 1 ft x 1ft in dimensions so it does not take up much space. . . .

Do you have a lazarette which is separated from the main hull volume? And which drains overboard below from the bottom? If you do, you're a lucky man -- I've never seen such a thing.

My propane locker is unfortunately -- full of propane. Or rather butane.

I seriously considered a gas pump. Not having a place to store it was fatal for me; might not be for others. The maintenance would be a PITA but maybe not fatal. I don't think you could not run it, however, for two years at a time (!), and be sure it would start, no matter how much stabilizer you put in it. In my opinion, you would have to take it out and run it regularly -- at least every couple three months. Change the oil every year. Dump out and replace the gasoline regularly. It's a lot of attention, however you slice it, for a device which you will most likely never use in anger.
__________________

__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
emergency, enc

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Blue Water Emergency Equipment Checklist stevec195 Health, Safety & Related Gear 7 26-11-2011 06:00
Flooding, Flooding, Flooding Sea Maid General Sailing Forum 4 03-05-2010 17:33
Flooding - Gee This Was Fun..... markpj23 Construction, Maintenance & Refit 1 12-03-2009 08:34
outboard flooding captden Engines and Propulsion Systems 5 01-06-2008 12:17
Blisters or Flooding? Which would you choose?? ssullivan General Sailing Forum 30 22-06-2005 02:36



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 13:50.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.