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Old 27-07-2016, 08:05   #106
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

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Originally Posted by danstanford View Post
Kenomac, I didn't need to try it because I know it works, the stern bridle works even better because you can just lob the line over the cleat so there is no pressure to get a loop on the cleat with a restricted amount of slack. Both work and your method is the simplest as you note.
BUT, if you read the rest of the discussion, you would know that I was looking for some way to accomplish this when backing into my slip. We almost always have a stiff cross breeze and we are in the windward side with a boat about 3' away on the lee side. I have lost count of the number of people on these forums advocating for various kinds of spring lines while I am trying to just find a simple way to get her on the windward side pontoon when it is breezy without some kind of fire drill getting two lines on the dock. Our best solution so far has been for someone to step off with a mid-ship line in hand and loop the middle cleat on the dock before she gets moving sideways into my slipmate.
If you have a suggestion I will gladly take it!
Dan
OK I admit it, I've only read the first and last page of this thread , but isn't the situation you describe ("get her on the windward side pontoon") precisely the situation so effortlessly managed with a midship spring line as Kenomac suggests?

No "fire drill", no "two lines", you pull in, you toss your spring line's loop over a dock cleat, you continue to skootch forward until the boat is pulled right alongside the dock?

The boat being in gear keeps you against your dock instead of drifting into your dock mate. That's the whole secret of the spring line, you are turning your forward (or aft) propulsion into a sideways force holding you snug against your dock.

(And btw, it's smart to try and avoid jumping from boat to dock - I'd rather occasionally scratch some gelcoat than crush somebody.)
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Old 27-07-2016, 08:45   #107
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

isn't the situation you describe ("get her on the windward side pontoon") precisely the situation so effortlessly managed with a midship spring line as Kenomac suggests?

Chris, I am backing into my slip. If you are suggesting that I back in and then grab the inner cleat then power outward (forward) I suppose I could do that but I would be trying to stop the boat and get the line on the cleat all at the same time before she starts walking over.

By the way, I am skilled enough that nobody needs to risk getting crushed, it is just that you only have a few seconds against the dock with a crosswind before things get out of control so there is always a rush to get that midship line on the dock. If there is no wind there is no problem.
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Old 27-07-2016, 09:16   #108
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

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Originally Posted by danstanford View Post
isn't the situation you describe ("get her on the windward side pontoon") precisely the situation so effortlessly managed with a midship spring line as Kenomac suggests?

Chris, I am backing into my slip. If you are suggesting that I back in and then grab the inner cleat then power outward (forward) I suppose I could do that but I would be trying to stop the boat and get the line on the cleat all at the same time before she starts walking over.

By the way, I am skilled enough that nobody needs to risk getting crushed, it is just that you only have a few seconds against the dock with a crosswind before things get out of control so there is always a rush to get that midship line on the dock. If there is no wind there is no problem.
The dock and the springline don't really know the difference between forward and reverse.

To use a springline to dock bow first:
Toss your midship springline to a cleat that will be (aft) of midship when in the slip. As you continue to motor (forward) the line will pull the boat against the dock.

To use a springline to dock stern first:
Toss your midship springline to a cleat that will be (forward) of midship when in the slip. As you continue to motor (backwards) the line will pull the boat against the dock.

No? I guess you are suggesting that prop walk ruins it? I'd think its effect can almost certainly be negated by proper positioning of your fender and your line, but I've never actually backed in. With the fender positioning, you are just making sure than any turning moments don't have any room to act.
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Old 27-07-2016, 09:49   #109
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

Might have a plan that will help you out and keep things smooth and easy.

When docking into any dead end slip that is shorter than your length, you might rig a breast dock line amidships.

That will be the first line that you will put to an aft section dock cleat.

Also have a stern line run forward draped forward over the life line that will be easy to reach from amidships and that will run out easily and not foul.

And have your bow line ready as well. That will be last.

Pull up to your dock, and step off with your breast line stepping off from your shrouds, and get it to a cleat. The breast line lead to a cleat that is aft of your amidships location on the dock will stop the boat. Now bow smashing into the dock. No man handling the vessel with bare hands and muscle.

The boat is now stopped, and holding to the dock. Quickly walk back a couple of feet , grab the stern dock line, and cleat the stern line to the far aft dock cleat. Then walk up forward to cleat down the bow line to the dock.


The boat is stopped and secure. Everything is peaceful and easy.


Survey the situation, and make minor adjustments re'cleating, and rigging spring lines. Flemish out your dock lines on the dock, no tangling up feet.

Main thing is to get that breast line on to hold the vessel to the dock, and
then move quickly to the stern line and hual the stern to the dock. Then the bow line.



The boat is stationary, and now calmly make any minor changes. We Also
would use spring lines.


The other solution, is to get a single slip, with fingers on each side, and no other vessels next your boat. especially with the wind blowing off the dock.


Also, for your current situation, lay out extra fenders where the point of impact will be if your boat blows down on that vessel that is on your port quarter. Should your stern drift over, both vessels are protected, and simply hual the stern line in to bring your vessel gently back.

Just reducing the stress factor will help out, and no over judicious
application of power combined and rapidly changing gears. Usually that results in hull or pulpit damage.


Used to tell my sailing and motor vessel students....when docking , or moving vessels in our lagoon where other boats were tied up. " When you're going slow, the cost is low, when you are going fast, you will loose your ... ( transome ).

Personally, you have a very difficult docking situation with the wind blowing off your dock. If possible, you might really consider a different slip, or even changing marinas.

Keep life simple and as easy and safe as possible.

Our sailing Vessel Valhalla, Ericson 34 shared the same two vessel slip, with a large power boat, and we had a prevailing wind off the ocean that was a quartering wind to my starboard side, Our dock finger slip was to
starboard. Three feet separation from the motor vessel to our immediate port side.

I had lots of port side fenders, and used a breast line, and followed the same procedure outlined above. It was also a dead in slip, shorter than our length.

After the first securing of the boat we also re set the lines after the initial
tie up. Added on spring lines, and flemished out the tails of the dock lines.

Hope this will work out for you. You might also practice setting up your docklines while at the dock, and practice getting off the boat, securing them to dock cleats, and just get familiar with the body movements before you try and use them in an actual docking.
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Old 27-07-2016, 10:03   #110
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

Sorry, meant to type NO BOW smashing into the docks. But you already experienced that lesson...

Don't beat yourself up, we all have had the bow contact a dock.
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Old 28-07-2016, 05:05   #111
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

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The dock and the springline don't really know the difference between forward and reverse.
I am sure that neither of these items knows the difference but in my experience you sure need propwash to keep her pinned to the dock. If you use the conventional spring line and don't turn the rudder into the dock she won't rest steady against the dock. In reverse you not only don't have propwash but you have propwalk against you on one side. I have tried both a spring line and a bridle when using reverse and when moored on both sides and when there is a cross breeze off the dock it seems reverse won't keep her there....at least at idle.

We generally have no problem despite a terrible slip in terms of maneuvering room and a cross breeze. Going bow in is the only way I can make it work when the cross breeze is strong as I can steer her much more directly up into the breeze and then use a spring/bridle to hold her there. Unlike the OP, I am really just looking for a better solution for backing in.

If someone is making this work I would love to know what I am doing wrong so please sing out.

Dan
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Old 28-07-2016, 06:34   #112
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

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Originally Posted by danstanford View Post
I am sure that neither of these items knows the difference but in my experience you sure need propwash to keep her pinned to the dock. If you use the conventional spring line and don't turn the rudder into the dock she won't rest steady against the dock. In reverse you not only don't have propwash but you have propwalk against you on one side. I have tried both a spring line and a bridle when using reverse and when moored on both sides and when there is a cross breeze off the dock it seems reverse won't keep her there....at least at idle.

We generally have no problem despite a terrible slip in terms of maneuvering room and a cross breeze. Going bow in is the only way I can make it work when the cross breeze is strong as I can steer her much more directly up into the breeze and then use a spring/bridle to hold her there. Unlike the OP, I am really just looking for a better solution for backing in.

If someone is making this work I would love to know what I am doing wrong so please sing out.

Dan

OK - Got it - When backing in with just a midship spring line to a dock cleat forward, the stern ends up walking away from the dock. Right?

This should be easy to experiment with at the dock. Try putting a second bumper somewhere forward of midship to prevent the rotation. (For the stern to creep away from the dock, the bow has to creep toward the dock, right?) I'd dork with placement, length, power, and rudder position to try to find a stable spot.
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Old 28-07-2016, 08:04   #113
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

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Originally Posted by chris95040 View Post
OK - Got it - When backing in with just a midship spring line to a dock cleat forward, the stern ends up walking away from the dock. Right?

This should be easy to experiment with at the dock. Try putting a second bumper somewhere forward of midship to prevent the rotation. (For the stern to creep away from the dock, the bow has to creep toward the dock, right?) I'd dork with placement, length, power, and rudder position to try to find a stable spot.
Chris, I hadn't thought of that solution so I will try some other fenders just ahead of mid-ship to see if that works. My experience says, though I haven't chanced banging my slipmate's boat, that she will swing right away from the dock until in balance with the wind pivoting on the cleat she is fixed to. I believe it is the propwash in forward driving you to the dock which creates a balance resulting in a static boat.

I will try this and report back.
Dan
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Old 28-07-2016, 12:29   #114
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
The most basic docking procedure would have avoided your collision. Tie a large loop amidship at the widest point cleat, then simply drop the loop over the proper cleat as you approach the dock, turn hard away from the dock and leave the boat in forward gear idle. The boat won't go anywhere and you'll have plenty of time to casually step off the boat, tie up and look like a pro.
+1

Do I really know what you are talking about? Well, no. But I have seen it done and it does look impressive.
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Old 14-08-2016, 21:39   #115
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

Didn't see this element posted, sorry if missed and duplicating.....

Had the same slip.

Go in high, ie, further up the fairway, before starting your turn. The turn will be faster, as the wind will help complete it, which is especially why you want to go in high.

(If you go in low, and the wind blows you down, there's... no room for margin.)

Inch the turn around and gage how much wind is or isn't contributing, and adjust accordingly. It works, even had first timers on 11 ton boats do it flawlessly.

And of course, as stated, have docking line ready to catch cleat and snub.

This was alluded to... helpful to remember.... unless water is flowing over the rudder, it will not give you any steerage. When you need to go astern, get boat moving with rudder centered up, once moving, then turn the rudder.
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Old 16-08-2016, 07:21   #116
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

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Go in high, ie, further up the fairway, before starting your turn. The turn will be faster, as the wind will help complete it, which is especially why you want to go in high.

(If you go in low, and the wind blows you down, there's... no room for margin.)
Smile, I struggled with this for a while till I started angling from leeward up to the dock. Our momentum was then into the dock and it gave us more time to get her secured. I found that when I let the wind bring the bow down to the end of the dock the momentum was then all away from the dock and into my neighbor with the bow moving out of range by the time I got the majority of the boat into the slip. In general I agree with the strategy of letting the wind be my helper but in this case it made it much harder for us. I would certainly use your strategy if going onto the leeward finger. Dan
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Old 16-08-2016, 11:20   #117
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

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Smile, I struggled with this for a while till I started angling from leeward up to the dock. Our momentum was then into the dock and it gave us more time to get her secured. I found that when I let the wind bring the bow down to the end of the dock the momentum was then all away from the dock and into my neighbor with the bow moving out of range by the time I got the majority of the boat into the slip. In general I agree with the strategy of letting the wind be my helper but in this case it made it much harder for us. I would certainly use your strategy if going onto the leeward finger. Dan
Not sure if we are saying the same thing. Did you maintain good forward progress through the turn with the engine, while making adjustments for how the wind contributed?
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Old 18-08-2016, 07:39   #118
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

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Not sure if we are saying the same thing. Did you maintain good forward progress through the turn with the engine, while making adjustments for how the wind contributed?
Bigsmile, certainly have always maintained as much forward momentum as I could/felt appropriate in the circumstances, but by the time I am making the tight turn into the slip I would always be in neutral. My point was that with a strong cross breeze off the dock, the more acute an angle I can approach from seems to make the time greater to get her hooked up. The more parallel I get on the approach the more the bow blows down away from the dock which shortens the available time to get her hooked on.
I am in a little basin with my slip the first one to port (windward) from the entrance and 180 degree turn is needed. My first month or so with the slip I would turn to port as I entered and then let the wind blow the bow down till I was able to drive in bow first. When the breeze was brisk I would end up too far away with the bow by the time I got midships into the slip. Then I started doing a standing turn to starboard which then let me approach from leeward and at an angle which has made the whole thing much easier.

Different strokes I guess.

Dan
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Old 18-08-2016, 09:14   #119
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

All this makes me appreciate my slip location. To get into my spot, I'm headed directly into a light current and I also move west which happens to be where most of the wind comes from based on my location. Would be lots tougher if the current was from either side or if we had a predominate cross wind. But the lay of the land (a big hill) keeps breezes moving either west or east with an occasional blow from the North. Location, location, location. I just lucked out. Didn't plan it. I picked the slip because it was available and the marina restroom was convenient. Which also has paid off from time to time! :-)
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Old 18-08-2016, 10:29   #120
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

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All this makes me appreciate my slip location. To get into my spot, I'm headed directly into a light current and I also move west which happens to be where most of the wind comes from based on my location. Would be lots tougher if the current was from either side or if we had a predominate cross wind. But the lay of the land (a big hill) keeps breezes moving either west or east with an occasional blow from the North. Location, location, location. I just lucked out. Didn't plan it. I picked the slip because it was available and the marina restroom was convenient. Which also has paid off from time to time! :-)
I think if I were you, I would look for another slip. Your biggest constraint is the distance to the vessels across from your slip.
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