Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 10-07-2016, 15:45   #91
Senior Cruiser
 
JSSailem's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Salem, OR
Boat: CAL, 35 Cruiser, 35 ft
Posts: 56
Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

"So I can 'kick' my stern over opposite the direction of prop walk?"

Yes with back and forward thrust you can spin the boat both ways. It will spin faster in the direction of prop wash walk but be positioning the rudder you can walk to either port or starboard.

On a day with out wind or current, find an open space of water and practice In both directions. As wind gets brisk you may find the boats freeboard catches too much wind to be effective.

As far as options. I try to head for and nuzzel the dock but stop all momentum prior to stepping to the dock. I have a line in hand and wrap to a cleat to stop any boat movement. Then quickly move to bow or stern to stop the blow off the dock issue. Need to be quick and follow a predecided plan.
__________________

__________________
JSSailem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2016, 05:12   #92
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Boat: Beneteau 323
Posts: 66
Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

Big endorsement for the stern bridle arrangement with a dollop of love from my bride! Though it was calm and therefore much easier that the normal crosswinds, we cruised up and she dropped the line over the cleat and I tightened it up and dropped her in forward and she cuddled right up to the dock. This is a great way to do this in our circumstance and I imagine in most situations because you don't need to get off the boat to make it work.
Next time out we are going to bridle her at the bow and see if she will sit against the dock. Given the need to still have the rudder set to turn in to the dock to settle her down, I have my doubts...but I do have a port tie when backed in so the prop walk will help.
If you haven't done so, watch the stern bridle vimeo link above in this thread, it is a brilliant idea.

Dan
__________________

__________________
Never attribute to malice what can be explained away by stupidity.
danstanford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2016, 14:12   #93
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 18,310
Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by danstanford View Post
Big endorsement for the stern bridle arrangement with a dollop of love from my bride! Though it was calm and therefore much easier that the normal crosswinds, we cruised up and she dropped the line over the cleat and I tightened it up and dropped her in forward and she cuddled right up to the dock. This is a great way to do this in our circumstance and I imagine in most situations because you don't need to get off the boat to make it work.
Next time out we are going to bridle her at the bow and see if she will sit against the dock. Given the need to still have the rudder set to turn in to the dock to settle her down, I have my doubts...but I do have a port tie when backed in so the prop walk will help.
If you haven't done so, watch the stern bridle vimeo link above in this thread, it is a brilliant idea.

Dan

I do a lot of single handed berthing of my boat in the winter time when I don't have crew. I'll try this technique. I have to say I don't quite get the geometry, but I'll give it a try.

My technique is actually somewhat similar, but without the bridle arrangement. I NEVER get off the boat to tie up. I drop a long loop of a dock line over a cleat near where I want the middle of the boat to be. One end is fastened to a midships cleat, and I tied down the other end on the same cleat. The length is not critical, and it is not necessary to be all that close to the dock (although I do not generally have any problem maneuvering up to just kiss the dock). Then you power ahead gently (as in the videos) and put bow and stern lines on at your leisure.

At midships, bow and stern are somewhat under control -- with this "bridal" thing I would think that the bow would not be under control, which might not be good if the bow is being blown off. I'll give it a try, however.

NOTE WELL that none of these techniques will work in areas (like the Baltic), where cleats with horns are not used. Up here there are rings, not cleats, and you need a special hook to get a line through them without stepping off. PITA. And that's if you're even going alongside, which is not very common. I'm not sure how I would manage single handed up here. Rely on the kindness of strangers I guess.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2016, 19:27   #94
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: 1999 Leopard 45, 45 foot cat, 1980 Hunter 33, 33 foot monohull
Posts: 366
Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I do a lot of single handed berthing of my boat in the winter time when I don't have crew. I'll try this technique. I have to say I don't quite get the geometry, but I'll give it a try.

My technique is actually somewhat similar, but without the bridle arrangement. I NEVER get off the boat to tie up. I drop a long loop of a dock line over a cleat near where I want the middle of the boat to be. One end is fastened to a midships cleat, and I tied down the other end on the same cleat. The length is not critical, and it is not necessary to be all that close to the dock (although I do not generally have any problem maneuvering up to just kiss the dock). Then you power ahead gently (as in the videos) and put bow and stern lines on at your leisure.

At midships, bow and stern are somewhat under control -- with this "bridal" thing I would think that the bow would not be under control, which might not be good if the bow is being blown off. I'll give it a try, however.

NOTE WELL that none of these techniques will work in areas (like the Baltic), where cleats with horns are not used. Up here there are rings, not cleats, and you need a special hook to get a line through them without stepping off. PITA. And that's if you're even going alongside, which is not very common. I'm not sure how I would manage single handed up here. Rely on the kindness of strangers I guess.
There is an attachment for the end of a boat hook, that allows you to pass a line through a ring (designed to used for a buoy, but why not a dock ring?) and back to the boat hook. I have never used one and don't quite understand how it works, but I have seen it advertised often, and reviewed a couple of times, so it might be worth a try.....less need for the kindness of stangers, who may or may not be present!
__________________
contrail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2016, 23:55   #95
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 18,310
Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by contrail View Post
There is an attachment for the end of a boat hook, that allows you to pass a line through a ring (designed to used for a buoy, but why not a dock ring?) and back to the boat hook. I have never used one and don't quite understand how it works, but I have seen it advertised often, and reviewed a couple of times, so it might be worth a try.....less need for the kindness of stangers, who may or may not be present!
I have it -- it's called the "Hook 'N Moor", made in Sweden I believe (at least, bought there by me). Welcome to Hook & Moor

It worked well the first year; now it's jammed up. It works with recirculating Torlon balls. I'll maybe try some dry lube on it.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-07-2016, 05:53   #96
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Boat: Beneteau 323
Posts: 66
Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

At midships, bow and stern are somewhat under control -- with this "bridal" thing I would think that the bow would not be under control, which might not be good if the bow is being blown off. I'll give it a try, however.


As you note, the bow is only moderately controlled...until I turn the rudder into the dock and the stern fell right in. The geometry seemed pretty flexible to me, the forces seem to be just like any stern spring in terms of gently pushing you into the dock but the real advantage is how easy it is to grab the cleat because you just have to get the line around it. In fact, my wife only got one ear of the cleat (because of a fender I have attached to the dock at the cleat) and it still worked perfectly. Just having to toss the line over the cleat and having the immense flexibility of the length of line (because you take up the slack after) are the principal advantages.

If the bow spring doesn't work, I am going to try to back in and throw the bridle over the middle cleat (or inner if things are perfect)on the dock and then go forward to pin her in place while we get off and finish warping her in. Our issue is a prevalent strong cross wind off the dock and a neighbour only about 4' away.

Dan
__________________
Never attribute to malice what can be explained away by stupidity.
danstanford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-07-2016, 06:27   #97
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 18,310
Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by danstanford View Post
At midships, bow and stern are somewhat under control -- with this "bridal" thing I would think that the bow would not be under control, which might not be good if the bow is being blown off. I'll give it a try, however.


As you note, the bow is only moderately controlled...until I turn the rudder into the dock and the stern fell right in. The geometry seemed pretty flexible to me, the forces seem to be just like any stern spring in terms of gently pushing you into the dock but the real advantage is how easy it is to grab the cleat because you just have to get the line around it. In fact, my wife only got one ear of the cleat (because of a fender I have attached to the dock at the cleat) and it still worked perfectly. Just having to toss the line over the cleat and having the immense flexibility of the length of line (because you take up the slack after) are the principal advantages.

If the bow spring doesn't work, I am going to try to back in and throw the bridle over the middle cleat (or inner if things are perfect)on the dock and then go forward to pin her in place while we get off and finish warping her in. Our issue is a prevalent strong cross wind off the dock and a neighbour only about 4' away.

Dan
OK, that sounds reasonable. I would guess that doing the bridle thing from the bow might actually be better than doing it from the stern -- as you have the rudder to control the stern. You'd need a long line brought back I guess to a turning block, but this doesn't need to be a heavy dockline. I guess this might work ok. Let us know how it works for you.


One thing I did like for sure about the techniques shown in the video was the idea of having the dockline on a winch. This will give you welcome control from the helm.

I do something like that going into a Baltic bows-to mooring when double-handed -- a long line (an old sheet) looped on a stern cleat, threaded through the stern buoy, led back through the middle of the cleat and then forward to an electric sheet winch. Then the crew goes to the bow to try to get a bow line onto something on the quay (very hard without someone helping on the quay, since the bow is so much higher, and there are no cleats). I can control the stern line and throttle/gear/steering/thruster all at the same time, from the helm. This is really useful.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-07-2016, 07:44   #98
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Boat: Beneteau 323
Posts: 66
Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

If the bow spring doesn't work, I am going to try to back in and throw the bridle over the middle cleat (or inner if things are perfect)on the dock and then go forward to pin her in place while we get off and finish warping her in. Our issue is a prevalent strong cross wind off the dock and a neighbour only about 4' away.

Dan[/QUOTE]

So I tried running the bow bridle by running a line from the bow cleat to the mid ship cleat and around the forward cleat then snugging up so the fender was a couple of inches from the dock. I then put her in idle reverse and as soon as I let go the stern line the stern moved away and would have hit the neighbour before the bridle would have stopped her. Admittedly we had a starboard tie which meant that the propwalk was working against us but I believe the absence of the vectored propwash was the issue. Next time I back her in I am going to try again with the prop walk in our favour.

Dan
__________________
Never attribute to malice what can be explained away by stupidity.
danstanford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-07-2016, 10:00   #99
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Hailey, ID
Boat: Gulf 32 & Nimble 20
Posts: 306
Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by danstanford View Post
So I tried running the bow bridle by running a line from the bow cleat to the mid ship cleat and around the forward cleat then snugging up so the fender was a couple of inches from the dock. I then put her in idle reverse and as soon as I let go the stern line the stern moved away and would have hit the neighbour before the bridle would have stopped her. Admittedly we had a starboard tie which meant that the propwalk was working against us but I believe the absence of the vectored propwash was the issue. Next time I back her in I am going to try again with the prop walk in our favour.

Dan
Obviously all boats are different so what works for you might not for me, but please report on how your second attempt works, this is something I've been considering for a bit but have the same concern that without the propwash this won't work the same way backing in as it does going forward.

But it also could just be an issue of a more sensitive "pivot point" when backing in, and if you adjust fore or aft with your bridle positioning you might be able to find the "sweet spot"?
__________________
Hailey, Idaho & Bellingham, WA
Sailing blog: http://Sailing.PictureOfNectar.com
basssears is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-07-2016, 10:45   #100
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 62
Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

Since we steer with the Stern, wouldn't turning the rudder to port, force the Stern to push against the dock and away from the neighbor? In idle forward that is? That's how I do it at the fuel dock. Cleat off at the bow (starboard) and then turn the wheel to port in idle forward which pushes the Stern onto the dock where I then have all the time to tie it off while the motor is holding the Stern in place.

Enviado do meu GT-I9195 através de Tapatalk
__________________
tchavei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-07-2016, 11:45   #101
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Boat: Beneteau 323
Posts: 66
Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tchavei View Post
Since we steer with the Stern, wouldn't turning the rudder to port, force the Stern to push against the dock and away from the neighbor? In idle forward that is? That's how I do it at the fuel dock. Cleat off at the bow (starboard) and then turn the wheel to port in idle forward which pushes the Stern onto the dock where I then have all the time to tie it off while the motor is holding the Stern in place.

Enviado do meu GT-I9195 através de Tapatalk
I, too, use forward with success in the situation you note, but the situation I am trying is different in that I am backing into the slip/pen. The stern bridle works so well because you can have lots of extra line to throw over the cleat and then concurrently take up the slack and give her some forward to take you further into the pen but not allowing yourself to run into the end of the slip. The only way I can imagine to rig it up to use forward pressure from the engine would be to go fully into the slip then connect, then put her in forward.
Am I missing something? If I used the bridle from the forward cleat to the mid cleat on the boat and then looped the middle cleat on the dock, that might work....otherwise the forward pressure will just push us out till the middle cleat on the boat is even (or close) to the outer cleat on the dock.

Will give that a try too. If I am missing something, please write back.

Dan
__________________
Never attribute to malice what can be explained away by stupidity.
danstanford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-07-2016, 13:04   #102
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 62
Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

Backing up, shouldn't turning to port side have the same effect since the bow can't move to starboard because it's cleated to the dock on port side?

Hmm, maybe not because in idle reverse the prop wash would push you star port and the rudder wouldn't have much effect keeping the Stern pressed against the dock... It's worth the experiment though.

Enviado do meu GT-I9195 através de Tapatalk
__________________
tchavei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-07-2016, 04:26   #103
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Boat: Beneteau 323
Posts: 66
Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

T, last night I ran a line from the bow cleat around the forward dock cleat then back to the mid-ships cleat on our boat and threw her in idle reverse. This time I had her backed into the slip and tied on the port side so prop walk would help. If it had been calm with no wind she might have sat there but we had a brisk breeze off the dock and the stern pivoted away from the dock. As good as the stern bridle works, we cannot seem to find a similar spring type solution when we back her in.

Dan

Hmm, maybe not because in idle reverse the prop wash would push you star port and the rudder wouldn't have much effect keeping the Stern pressed against the dock... It's worth the experiment though.

Enviado do meu GT-I9195 através de Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

__________________
Never attribute to malice what can be explained away by stupidity.
danstanford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-07-2016, 04:38   #104
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 7,634
Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

Did you try the simple method I described on the first page of this thread? Tie a big rope loop to the centermost cleat on YOUR boat, then simply drop it over the first dock cleat, then motor forward slowly while steering away from the dock?
__________________
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-07-2016, 06:43   #105
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Boat: Beneteau 323
Posts: 66
Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Did you try the simple method I described on the first page of this thread? Tie a big rope loop to the centermost cleat on YOUR boat, then simply drop it over the first dock cleat, then motor forward slowly while steering away from the dock?
Kenomac, I didn't need to try it because I know it works, the stern bridle works even better because you can just lob the line over the cleat so there is no pressure to get a loop on the cleat with a restricted amount of slack. Both work and your method is the simplest as you note.
BUT, if you read the rest of the discussion, you would know that I was looking for some way to accomplish this when backing into my slip. We almost always have a stiff cross breeze and we are in the windward side with a boat about 3' away on the lee side. I have lost count of the number of people on these forums advocating for various kinds of spring lines while I am trying to just find a simple way to get her on the windward side pontoon when it is breezy without some kind of fire drill getting two lines on the dock. Our best solution so far has been for someone to step off with a mid-ship line in hand and loop the middle cleat on the dock before she gets moving sideways into my slipmate.
If you have a suggestion I will gladly take it!
Dan
__________________

__________________
Never attribute to malice what can be explained away by stupidity.
danstanford is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
collision

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
TRAGEDY AVOIDED! How it should be done! POH Seamanship & Boat Handling 3 26-04-2012 08:41
Narrowly Avoided Collision with Motor Yacht Uncle Buck General Sailing Forum 50 12-03-2012 12:03
Could Have Been Really Bad ! wbuckl Meets & Greets 8 13-12-2010 13:30
Should high time diesel boat engines be avoided Panamajames Monohull Sailboats 6 03-04-2009 21:02
Rotten drain lines .... could have been a disaster! mobetah Construction, Maintenance & Refit 1 10-01-2008 19:58


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 19:40.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.