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Old 07-07-2016, 18:12   #76
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

The only sailor who hasn't hit, while learning, isn't sailing enough.

I'd use a version of that "stern bridle" (wimeo), but 1. with the two lines (i. spring, ii. stern) permanently installed on the aft cleat, each with a 2 foot bowline loop and 2. with a light (floating and non load bearing) line running between the bowlines. This line is a little longer than the distance between your amidships and stern cleats.

When leaving the berth you make sure the light line is floating in the water.
When drifting into the berth, take the boathook to the midships cleat, pick the light line out of the water, throw the loop onto the cleat, and walk back to the stern cleat while hand to handing the light line. Then into reverse to stop the forward motion.

The positive of this is not adjusting length and re-tying your lines - the tape marks, never seem to last.

The negative is wet hands, or when you've dropped the boathook in the drink at the island.

The same thing would work even better if you reversed into the berth, arrest your rearward movement by going into forward as you get the stern cleat on. The advantages this (i) not having to walk forward, and (ii) you would be docking on the port side, and (iii) the prop walk helps. I always liked to dock on port because then only one side of the boat needs re-painting in five years from the --- err --- wear (occasional stuffups).

After years of experience with the last method, 30 knots of wind from astern, and quiet a few of the usual spectators from the bar upstairs, I got both lines on (I thought), went into forward slow (just to put water across the rudder), wheel to port about 15 degrees to bring the bow close. Very cool. Jumped to the pier, only to watch first the stern line jump off the cleat, I lazily had not put it on properly and as she gathered forward momentum, the midships line jumped off also. It took some agility, (I pulled a muscle and got some bruises doing it) jumping back on the vessel before she left the pier on her own. Pheew, stuffed up and got away with it ... just.
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Old 08-07-2016, 03:44   #77
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

Mate, I can't help with the technique. I also had an altercation with the dock when I was fairly new to boating. My friends constantly like to rib me about it. the other week I was staying with a professional fisherman of 70 yrs experience when my mates decided to bring my altercation up. The professional fisherman said "Well it happens to us all" and went on to recount his experiences. Don't feel bad. You're not alone.

Scrubby
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Old 08-07-2016, 07:13   #78
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

Do you Guys think a bow bridle will work when backing in? Thinking I would run a line from the bow cleat to the mid-ship cleat then back to me at the helm to run it tight and manage the line till I am where I want to be.

It seems to me that without the propwash over the rudder it will be hard to get her to stay against the pier but am willing to give it a try. I have the exact same slip as the OP and frequently have 10-15 across the slip blowing me into my neighbour. When the wind is this heavy I have to drive in because I cannot get enough way on in the little basin I am in to keep the bow from blowing down onto my neighbour once I get the stern in. I would prefer to back in as this makes exit easier due to the same problem.
Dan
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Old 08-07-2016, 09:47   #79
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

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Originally Posted by danstanford View Post
...........then back to me at the helm to run it tight and manage the line till I am where I want to be.
Dan, you have to consider re-reading this entire thread. Most all of us have suggested that you "stop being a slave behind the wheel" because when you dock singlehanded, you HAVE to get out & about. To tend the lines. And NOT jump onto the dock. The boat, once settled onto a course at reasonable speed with the transmission in neutral is not going anywhere odd, it'll go where you last pointed it depending on rudder position.

You received lots of good advice.

Sometimes, I find it is easier to absorb information by printing out the thread and re-reading it, maybe even using a highlighter, like in the old days with books & magazines in print, rather than just reading on a computer screen.

Good luck.
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Old 08-07-2016, 12:59   #80
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

Ok please take this with a grain of salt. As I don't have to deal with this type of situation. ..yet. would it not be possible to drive perpendicular to dock with bow just past boat on other side of dock's starboard side, drop the hook with rode attached to block and bridle sytem on starboard side. Adjusted both bridle position and length of rode with cockpit winches. Obviously bow into or mostly into the wind. Use reverse, prop walk, and a pre placed dock attached mooring line on a stand So you can hook it from cockpit easily. Work mooring line through an easiliy released snatch block on stern port cleat. Forward to port winch. Now using wind and winches back boat in. Slowly adjusting starboard bridle all the way foward. And taking in from stern. Another mooring line on stand could caught with hook on other cleat. This would be used to replace mooring line that would now be too forward. That line would then be taken to port side bow cleat (you could have a midship to bow bridle on starboard also and attach mooring line to this to work forward from cockpit. Once docked retrieve hook with windlass. Assuming hook slipped a liitle b4 it bit, it should be close to directly off your bow. Might need a trip line on the hook depending on style, bottom. Etc. Wouldn't be super pretty, bit should be super safe, and keep you in the cockpit for most if not the entire venture. And very little engine use. I would use snubbers on my mooring lines to release shock to winches.
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Old 08-07-2016, 16:03   #81
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

6 pages in and no-one has corrected your terminology. In the nautical world a collision occurs when you strike another moving object; when you hit a fixed object, such as a dock, it's called an allision.
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Old 08-07-2016, 16:10   #82
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
.............when you hit a fixed object, such as a dock, it's called an allision.
I here I was thinking that it was called a boat bite.
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Old 08-07-2016, 17:19   #83
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

[QUOTE=Stu Jackson;2162073]Dan, you have to consider re-reading this entire thread.

Stu, I have to believe you think I originated this thread by your response. I asked one question which was do you think the stern bridle thing would work the other way around...a bow bridle if you will.

If you have an answer to that question, I would be interested. Otherwise I will just give it a try at the dock and see is she will hold there like she does with a stern spring.

For what it is worth, you came across as lecturing me by assuming I hadn't read all the responses nor absorbed the information.

Dan
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Old 08-07-2016, 19:43   #84
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

Hello,
Everybody has damage if they sail enough. I alway prefer docking against the wind and current. Find a friend.
Good luck
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Old 08-07-2016, 22:46   #85
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

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Originally Posted by danstanford View Post

For what it is worth, you came across as lecturing me by assuming I hadn't read all the responses nor absorbed the information.

Dan
Dan,

My apologies, I confused you with the OP. Very, very sorry.

Stu
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Old 09-07-2016, 00:45   #86
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

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Originally Posted by danstanford View Post
Do you Guys think a bow bridle will work when backing in? Thinking I would run a line from the bow cleat to the mid-ship cleat then back to me at the helm to run it tight and manage the line till I am where I want to be.
An interesting question, Dan. I note that no-one else has tackled your question. I've never done single line docking from the bow (I have tied up stern in, but I've done it by taking two or more lines on dock together), but I think I can try to outline some of principles.


1. First, let me start by looking at the terms. We're talking about variations on single line docking.


The term 'single line docking' dates from the early 1960s but the practice is likely older, being much used by operators of small passenger ferries who would use an aft midships spring to balance the forward thrust of a propeller turning at idle rpm.


Duncan Wells, the author of Stress Free Sailing, used the term 'slipped stern bridle' for the running bridle arrangement that Giles Windebank, of Ocean Adventures Sailing, taught him.


I think Wells's use of terminology is incorrect. What he advocates is a running quarter bridle. A stern bridle is what might be used, attached to two stern cleats, when towing a dinghy. A bridle from a midships cleat to a stern cleat (and to a winch) is a quarter bridle. It's a running bridle because the point at which the bridle inflects or turns at the dock cleat can change or run along the bridle. And the bridle changes its length, so it guess it's a variable running quarter bridle.


2. Second, theory.


As you might expect, there is an established body of theory for how a stern bridle, the sort that can be used when towing a dinghy (or anything) works.


The only statement of bridle theory I know is that made by Paul Kamen, the astonishing and wonderful editor of Latitude 38. Kamen writes a regular monthly column in which he takes the role of all-knowing Lee Helm and tackles a boating problem posed by the straight-man character Max Ebb.


Get yourself a copy of the November 2015 issue of Latitude 38 and turn to the Max Ebb column 'Towing the Line', pages 86-88. Here's a link to view/download the *.pdf version http://www.latitude38.com/eBooks/2015/L38201511.pdf (about 23 MB).


On page 87 of 'Towing the Line', Kamen has a summary diagram showing how you can think of a towing bridle as part of an ellipse that has the cleats as it focal points. And further a running bridle provides 'virtual' leverage, with the mechanical advantage associated with the ratio between the distance separating the two cleats and the radius of the virtual circle that approximates the ellipse (Kamen does not do a good job of the math because of limits on the space his column occupies; I'm not a mathmagician, so I can do nothing but point you to Kamen's diagram and text and hope that another CF reader might explain this more).


A running quarter bridle is slightly more complex because the length of the bridle necessarily changes. But I suspect it could be analysed in a similar way - there is a ellipse arc and a virtual centre to the virtual centre that would fit it, and some math relationship between the distance between the cleats and the radius of the virtual circle creates some leverage that works in our favour.


3. Third, Wells stresses one other point: that as he winches in the running quarter bridle, the boat tends to move such that the stern cleat ends closer and closer to the dock cleat.


Now ... try to apply #2 the theory of a running bridle and #3 the bit about the two cleats getting closer together to what you are considering: a running shoulder bridle between the bow and a midships cleat.


If we take the cleat/cleat part first, which boat cleat do you want to end up close to the dock cleat? If you want your bow cleat (or samson post or whatever attachment you are using) to end up close to dock cleat, then you have to make that the point from which you winch in the excess line of your bridle. Sure, you might be able to run your bridle from a bow cleat aft to a winch in the cockpit, or have someone at the bow using an anchor windlass, or have someone on a winch on the mast, but it's not going to be as neat as the quarter bridle working on a primary winch in the cockpit very close to the engine controls. It's yet another of the reasons that many sailing boats dock bows in instead of stern in - sail boats have a lot of devices proving mechanical advantage around the cockpit. Plus the controls to the engine.


Second is the math magic. I cannot see a reason why a running shoulder bridle shouldn't provide the same ellipse and virtual circle mechanical advantage. Most all sailboats (and power boats) have bows higher than the stern. That means that a running shoulder bridle will likely end up much higher than the dock cleat. I'm not sure of all the ways that complicates things, but it doesn't feel too right to me. I expect someone smarter than me will come along soon ...
'
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Old 09-07-2016, 05:05   #87
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

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Originally Posted by darylat8750 View Post
We did a ship cruise a few years ago and at several of the Greek islands the shore boats were provided by locals. All were single engine heavy displacement hulls. They would line up by the ship and often would back to the boarding platform when their turn came up. I noticed that none of those guys ever used idle in reverse. Big shot of power in reverse to get it moving. Shot of power to stop it. A couple of stops were in pretty challenging conditions for the small boats but it was fun (and a good learning experience ) to watch how they handled their boats. They got LOTS of practice!
Great observation!
Prop walk is useful at times but a d-mn nuisance much of the time.
If you want to back up & have rudder control of direction,use a big burst(or two) of Rev.power & immediately back to Neutral.Let coasting momentum & rudder do the steering by eliminating a turning prop in reverse.
Be prepared to used a short burst of fwd & appropriate rudder to kick the stern P or S if she gets out of line. Then repeat the short burst(s) of Rev. & back to Neutral to get coasting again.Practice this in an open area until you can back the boat in a straight line for a 100ft or so.
It can actually be fun mastering this
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Old 09-07-2016, 05:48   #88
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

Stu, no worries Brother.

Alan,

I certainly want the mid-ship cleat closest to the dock and so I agree that is where the slack would be drawn from. The concern for me is that I have found a stern spring needs me to use prop wash to set the alignment by aligning the rudder to suit. In the stern in orientation I obviously don't have that option and I think I may have trouble keeping her in place...but the bridle setup may change the dynamic and she might just hold in place due to the dual lines as you outlined.

Thanks to you both,

Dan
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Old 09-07-2016, 05:56   #89
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

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Correct. The issue for me is the few seconds between the time that we're stopped with the spring barely taut and the time the prop wash hits the rudder with enough force to bring the stern in. During those few seconds the bow swings in and the stern out at least a few feet which may be too many (not for me now but has been with other neighbors...and like you said I don't want to rely on fenders and the neighbors boat to dock unscathed, we've been hit three times by neighbors docking, one resulting in a $5k repair.) This is the only saildrive boat I've docked and there is a definite difference in response time from the initial forward thrust to when the rudder 'grabs.'


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
My boat has a rudder but the prop is a couple of feet ahead of it so I have a similar delay.
I have a "mid ship" cleat which is behind the widest part of boat by a bit. I have a "permanent" line on this cleat & it is brought back to where I can reach it from cockpit & is coiled there.
I place a 9 x 20 fender ahead of this cleat so fender is at widest beam.
I place another 9x20 aft of this cleat.
When docking,I drop this "mid ship" breast line over a dock cleat that is roughly 1/2 way between the dock cleats that I will use for my stern & bow lines.
I use very short scope on this line & cleat it to a cockpit winch.
The bow will sometimes try to swing towards dock,but this tight breastline & the fenders forward & aft of midship cleat prevents bow from swinging very far either toward dock or away from dock.
I can now take my time putting out proper bow,stern & springs.
This midship breastline is also the last line I let go when departing.
I singlehand most of the time.
Perhaps this may work for you.
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Old 09-07-2016, 16:08   #90
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Re: First Collision... how could I have avoided this?

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Do you Guys think a bow bridle will work when backing in? Thinking I would run a line from the bow cleat to the mid-ship cleat then back to me at the helm to run it tight and manage the line till I am where I want to be.
Here's my very knowledgeable answer to this question... probably?

I back in to my slip always to be bow to prevailing wind... I have tried a midship bridle and it seems really really close to working, but I haven't found my correct pivot point yet... I don't have any midship cleats, I have tried front of my jib track but that's too far aft and even idling in reverse against it the bow swings out... I have tried next hard point forward and it is too far forward so I have to rig something in between and try again. But I will because I think once I get it figured it will work great.

For anyone considering install mid ships cleats for this purpose (especially if going in stern first where it seems pivot point location is even more sensitive) most definitely test and find the right location for the cleat for your boat beforevdoing something permanent, they're all going to be different and it seems a foot or even inches can make a big difference.
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