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Old 04-03-2010, 08:41   #46
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NormanMartin: You are absolutely correct for optimal twist. But I was describing some extra twist up above for use in stormy conditions (de-powering the sail). Think of it like this: de-powering your sail is like an extra reef. You can use it to fine tune reefing (like when you would need 1.5 reefs) or when a squall caught you and you're too lazy to reef for those 10 minutes of high winds or when you want some extra comfort for making dinner etc.

Edit: I should have mentioned the tell tales though... besides at the batten/leech positions, you also need some near the luff. The book I linked to explains it all and I guess every book on sail trim does.

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Old 04-03-2010, 08:47   #47
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Nigel:
Glad to hear that.

I sailed a couple of Beneteau 473s in the Caribbean. Nice boats. One I have been aboard many times but never sailed, Justice, has won many charter-boat division races at Antigua, St Maarten, and BVI. The owner has good sails and sail controls, which helps.

Justice did a BVI-Med-BVI trip last year. The boat was fine and took good care of the crew. What more can you ask of a vessel? Hope you have as much fun with yours.

Norman
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Old 04-03-2010, 09:07   #48
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Jedi
You make an interesting point. We all have a sort of flow chart for actions taken. There are immediate actions for short term issues, etc.

On Averisera, we are frugal. When cruising we find that less sail properly trimmed is easier on the vessel's equipment. One of our favorite things is to use the small, 77%, headsail with an outboard lead when reaching. We are fast enough and the foot doesn't pick up water. At the top of the sail, because we are not twisted off too much aloft, the sail is drawing hard along it full length. The boat goes along just fine.

In the same way that the traveller and vang come into play with the main, so does a short sheet and out board lead block for the head sail. With RF head sails, the sheet leads are even more important to have easily adjusted.
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Old 04-03-2010, 09:09   #49
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Thanks for the info NIck, and the link to the book.
When I took the delivery of the boat I sailed her from Ipswich to Liverpool, 650 miles, early January, average wind was F6, max was F10, (but little fetch thankfully), boat handled well, although slams a bit, but fun trip all the same.
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Old 04-03-2010, 09:53   #50
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If you want to learn sail trim thats great but most of the sailors I meet really just want to enjoy the boat, un roll a couple sails and have a bit of fun, nothing wrong with that. If you do want to learn sail trim there are many good books out there for that: Wally Ross, Sail Power, Stuart Walker manual of Sail Trim, any of the North material... Also, try to get on a racing boat.

Quick primer;
for speed you want a fine entry, minimum draft, draft back.
for power you want a deeper entry, deeper draft, and draft forward.
in flatter water you can close the leech and increase upwash.
in the lumps twist off and bring the power down.

There are about a million different settings between what is listed above to keep the boat in balance and the speed up.

Play with trim if you like or enjoy a coldie if that suites the you better.
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Old 04-03-2010, 10:37   #51
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@NormanMartin: exactly. We are forced to trim properly because we already have less surface area than other boats of our length. This is a Dashew thing, to make a big boat easy to handle by just a couple. The nice thing is that the extra requirements we have for sails (better materials, tri-radial etc.) don't cost that much extra anymore now that it's all cut by computerized equipment. My last set was only 10% extra cost compared to dacron cross cut.

@nigel1: trips like that on the North Sea are the only way to learn sailing, learn your boat and provide you with the confidence to go out in almost any weather conditions. But I must also say that I am very happy to be in tropical waters after 30 years of that cold & rainy stuff. I do remember how good a dram of single malt tasted after that though ;-)
The good thing for sailors from Western Europe is that we are forced to go through that because we don't have an ICW to sneak around the bad spots ;-0 Oh my, now I'll need to duck & hide...

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 04-03-2010, 10:42   #52
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Quote:
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If you want to learn sail trim thats great but most of the sailors I meet really just want to enjoy the boat, un roll a couple sails and have a bit of fun, nothing wrong with that.
Sure, we do that too. In anything up to 20 knots of wind you can do almost anything you want. But when the wind goes up to 25 or more, things change. And under those conditions sail trim make a big difference... from a happy long cruising life with the wife on one end to a quick divorce on the other end.

The boat will mostly save herself no matter what you do... it's about crew comfort, avoiding crew stress etc. plus it's better for the boat.

ciao!
Nick.
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Old 04-03-2010, 10:50   #53
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Nick, you're kind of in a different league. Very few people roam oceans, they daysail. If it's blowing 25 they don't leave the marina. 25 for you is a nice breeze to get things moving, for most others it's not a breeze they want to play in.

Us, we like a breeze but we have a couple miles under our keel.

One of our few pictures from 5 years ago.


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Sure, we do that too. In anything up to 20 knots of wind you can do almost anything you want. But when the wind goes up to 25 or more, things change. And under those conditions sail trim make a big difference... from a happy long cruising life with the wife on one end to a quick divorce on the other end.

The boat will mostly save herself no matter what you do... it's about crew comfort, avoiding crew stress etc. plus it's better for the boat.

ciao!
Nick.
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Old 04-03-2010, 10:57   #54
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We had our years of racing hundreds of races. I kind of dig cruising now, drinking coldies and watching.

When we are done cruising I'll go back to racing, maybe a lightning or thistle. Hmm maybe even a he-man Finn!

Our kids on the way to winning the ILYA Thistle traveler series summer 2009.

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Old 04-03-2010, 11:17   #55
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Hmm... would this be the time to tell that I've never crossed an ocean on my own boat??? Crossing seas and coastal sailing is what we do; our primary reason for cruising is to see all the countries and the people and live among them for a while before taking our home to the next country. It's great to have the sailing in between of course ;-)

About sailing in 25 knots. It's what you grow up with. Every Dutch sailor will go out in 25 knots because we're used to that and call it a nice sailing breeze. My father took me out in much worse when I was a kid and after so many times of that, I didn't hesitate to go out single handed with 35 knots by the time I was 15. I still do that sometimes (the wind, not single handed ;-) but only when we really like to go somewhere else... being able to sail every day changes things.
But every sailor will adapt to sailing in much more wind than used to. The problem is that for some areas, the high wind conditions are only there when it's a storm with all other kinds of unpleasant things like rain & lightning etc. I would not leave the marina either in that case. One of the best places to sail in high wind conditions and still have fun are the Dutch ABC islands in the Caribbean. The sky is blue, the sun shines, both water and air are 28 degrees Celsius and 25 knots is blowing every day for weeks on end in the dry season. The lee of the south part of Bonaire provides flat water but allows the full trades to blow there and many sailors declare it one of the best sails of their life there. That is where one would want to gather sailing experience in high winds (or let the wife get used to it!)

But that is a fantastic photo you posted! Perfect conditions for the spinnaker, that is something we miss here in the Caribbean. When we sail down wind we get anything between 20-40 knots and the spinnakers stay stowed below.

ciao!
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Old 04-03-2010, 13:23   #56
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The Mona Passage can qualify a fairly bumpy bit of water on occasion.

We love the Caribbean, my wife grew up there. We should be there now for the Heineken Regetta but work is in the way this year, nasty 4 letter word that is.

Maybe one day soon we'll meet you in Sint Maarten? Possibly a race from Phillipsburg to Marigot? The winner buys lunch at Le Vien Rose?

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Hmm... would this be the time to tell that I've never crossed an ocean on my own boat??? Crossing seas and coastal sailing is what we do; our primary reason for cruising is to see all the countries and the people and live among them for a while before taking our home to the next country. It's great to have the sailing in between of course ;-)

About sailing in 25 knots. It's what you grow up with. Every Dutch sailor will go out in 25 knots because we're used to that and call it a nice sailing breeze. My father took me out in much worse when I was a kid and after so many times of that, I didn't hesitate to go out single handed with 35 knots by the time I was 15. I still do that sometimes (the wind, not single handed ;-) but only when we really like to go somewhere else... being able to sail every day changes things.
But every sailor will adapt to sailing in much more wind than used to. The problem is that for some areas, the high wind conditions are only there when it's a storm with all other kinds of unpleasant things like rain & lightning etc. I would not leave the marina either in that case. One of the best places to sail in high wind conditions and still have fun are the Dutch ABC islands in the Caribbean. The sky is blue, the sun shines, both water and air are 28 degrees Celsius and 25 knots is blowing every day for weeks on end in the dry season. The lee of the south part of Bonaire provides flat water but allows the full trades to blow there and many sailors declare it one of the best sails of their life there. That is where one would want to gather sailing experience in high winds (or let the wife get used to it!)

But that is a fantastic photo you posted! Perfect conditions for the spinnaker, that is something we miss here in the Caribbean. When we sail down wind we get anything between 20-40 knots and the spinnakers stay stowed below.

ciao!
Nick.
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Old 04-03-2010, 13:33   #57
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Count me in!

Didn't go down this year. Only missed two of the last six seasons in the Caribbean Sea. Got a second, 05, and a first, 06, in class at Heineken. Raced and cruised from San Juan to Scarborough, Tobago. SXM is the best.
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Old 04-03-2010, 19:16   #58
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So, when it is too windy - too much sail generates too much heel and too little sail renders the boat power-less. The happy in-between must be WELL TRIMMED sails.

The other side of the story is when there is hardly any wind.

I think many cruisers are hopeless at light wind sailing.

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Old 04-03-2010, 19:31   #59
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Jedi -

- well, lee of Bonaire ... not a bad spot indeed, probably the only place where I could get my clunker move faster than her hull speed ;-), and on a calm day (do they ever get one there?) you can use the draft from the landing planes ;-)))

- in the book you were so nice to quote (although probably in the other thread), what are they trying to teach us .... (picture attached ;-)))))

Cheers,
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Old 04-03-2010, 20:13   #60
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Back to an earlier comment -- On Insatiable, if there is another boat going the same way, we are racing... unless, of course she turns out to be faster... then we are cruising!

Cheers from Jim and Ann. s/v Insatiable II
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