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Old 03-03-2014, 02:26   #181
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

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Originally Posted by Blue Crab View Post
I'm thinking about trying to rig my whiskerpole so that it can also be used as a sculling oar. This may be a dumbass idea; it wouldn't be my first. I can build another long oar but that creates a stowage issue.
I'd be careful about the whisker pole.
The whisker poles I've come across are relatively flimsy. Had a friend using a whisker pole as a spinnaker pole and it folded up. Got a spinnaker pole? Those are usually more robust.

Try flexing your pole, does it bend scary?
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Old 03-03-2014, 03:17   #182
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

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Thanks for that, John; I wasn't aware of the Peugeot project. I must look into it in more detail.

There was a Tata 'runs on air' car which was going to revolutionise the auto scene a few years back, but it was a very unconvincing scam by a mad inventor. Tata clammed up totally when they realised they'd been had.

It's just not thermodynamically feasible to use an air compressor and an air motor and get any sort of range, which is what "runs on air" suggests, and any engineer could do some sums on the back of a fag packet and prove that in short order.

It's a shame the guff your link goes through to was written by an ad agency hack. Some of it makes about as much sense as astrology*. The best sense I could make of the video is that it's coincidentally almost the same idea as my proposal: there's a hydraulic pump driven by the engine, and a hydraulic motor which can assist the direct drive, or take over from it. (In my case, however, there's no direct drive; it's all through the latter mode). And there's a hydraulic accumulator.

The "compressed air" of which they speak is on one side of a bladder in the long accumulator, which lies lengthwise under the passenger compartment. The other side of the bladder has the pressurised hydraulic oil, provided by the pump, and kept under pressure by the fact that the air is highly compressed from the get-go. The oil comes and goes from the accumulator, but (in their case) the air is constantly there, just getting squashed up when the oil arrives.

I'm guessing the 'low pressure" tanks under the cargo compartment are for oil.

In my case, as well as tanks for hydraulic oil, I'll have three or four nitrogen bottles, each about the size of the accumulators, because (low down and central) their weight is actually beneficial for a shallow draft hull, which would otherwise require internal ballast.

They will prevent the pressure decaying significantly (like a battery voltage sagging) when the accumulators empty out, and furthermore one bottle can be left isolated for emergency situations.

Whereas for a car they will be trying to minimise weight, so I guess that's a benefit they can't cash in on.

The Peugeot accumulator looks about the size of each of mine, (except I'll have two - one like theirs, the other like a hydraulic cylinder with a free piston and no rod)

And my fallback "get me home" position would be to use air on the other side of the membrane and piston, as they apparently do. But normally I will use nitrogen, unless and until it leaks away far from civilisation, because I'm concerned about the corrosion potential of air gathered in a salty environment, and because nitrogen is less prone to leakage.

* eg <<Motorists never run the risk of running out of compressed air late at night on a deserted country road because the car will be fitted with a sophisticated artificial brain that ensures it replenishes itself automatically.>>

That sounds like bollocks to me. Even if it does replenish the air (which would be necessary only in the case of a leak) the 'artificial brain' to oversee this would have to be about as sophisticated as that fitted to a security light.
And the range on what they call air, but I would call oil, won't be enough to matter, with a single accumulator and no extra store for compressed air. It's reliant on fossil fuel, as far as I can see, and that's what the motorist will have to worry about running out of on a deserted country road, IMO.

I'm guessing they're plugging the "Air" rather than the more appropriate "Oil" is that oil, even hydraulic oil, is derived from fossil sources.
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Old 03-03-2014, 03:22   #183
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pirate Re: Engine-less Cruising

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I'd be careful about the whisker pole.
The whisker poles I've come across are relatively flimsy. Had a friend using a whisker pole as a spinnaker pole and it folded up. Got a spinnaker pole? Those are usually more robust.

Try flexing your pole, does it bend scary?
Thanks for the thoughts John. The whisker pole seems just about right, tho untried. Spinnaker pole is just too robust to be practical.
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Old 03-03-2014, 06:20   #184
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

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I think learning to sail as if you have no engine - i.e. using the engine as a convenience not a necessity - could help a lot of folks have far better cruising experience. As a lot of folks have moved from the original post idea on this discussion, I've started a new one under the title of Engine-free sailing.
So those folks who have motor vessel/trawler are automatically having an inferior experience?
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Old 03-03-2014, 09:24   #185
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

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So those folks who have motor vessel/trawler are automatically having an inferior experience?
I suppose that would depend on how often you sail your motor vessel/trawler.
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Old 03-03-2014, 10:44   #186
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

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I suppose that would depend on how often you sail your motor vessel/trawler.
Seems rather elitist.

Are you suggesting if you aren't a "purist" sailor who has neither the need nor desire for an engine, you are an inferior cruiser?
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Old 03-03-2014, 11:00   #187
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

Elitist in the boating world? Never. Haha.

Sent from my SCH-I415 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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Old 03-03-2014, 11:17   #188
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

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Seems rather elitist.

Are you suggesting if you aren't a "purist" sailor who has neither the need nor desire for an engine, you are an inferior cruiser?
It wasn't elitist at all. You sort of took it out of context.

He said "I think learning to sail as if you have no engine - i.e. using the engine as a convenience not a necessity - could help a lot of folks have far better cruising experience."

However, after sailing for about 15 years without an engine I probably never will again if I can avoid it.

It seems like the wind wants to always drop off when you most want to get in.
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Old 03-03-2014, 11:29   #189
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

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It wasn't elitist at all. You sort of took it out of context.

He said "I think learning to sail as if you have no engine - i.e. using the engine as a convenience not a necessity - could help a lot of folks have far better cruising experience."

However, after sailing for about 15 years without an engine I probably never will again if I can avoid it.

It seems like the wind wants to always drop off when you most want to get in.
I'm pretty sure I understood the context and there have been several others who have made other comments in the same vein implying starting up the motor is cheating or otherwise wrong unless in desperate situations.

To a degree, I'm just having a little fun stiring the pot but I can't see how spending a night drifting outside a port hove to, so we can get the joy of sailing in when the wind shifts somehow makes for a "better cruising experience" than just cranking up the engine and enjoying a relaxed evening in port. If that makes you happy and gives you a sense of acomplishment, good for you but it's hardly a neccessary element to better cruising.
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Old 03-03-2014, 11:35   #190
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

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I'm pretty sure I understood the context and there have been several others who have made other comments in the same vein implying starting up the motor is cheating or otherwise wrong unless in desperate situations.

To a degree, I'm just having a little fun stiring the pot but I can't see how spending a night drifting outside a port hove to, so we can get the joy of sailing in when the wind shifts somehow makes for a "better cruising experience" than just cranking up the engine and enjoying a relaxed evening in port. If that makes you happy and gives you a sense of acomplishment, good for you but it's hardly a neccessary element to better cruising.
You don't have to convince me. As I said, after sailing many years of without an engine, I'm starting to really enjoy having one.
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Old 03-03-2014, 11:44   #191
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Seems rather elitist.

Are you suggesting if you aren't a "purist" sailor who has neither the need nor desire for an engine, you are an inferior cruiser?
You SAIL a motor vessel/trawler? Congratulations, I've never seen anyone sail a motor boat. I need to get out more.
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Old 03-03-2014, 12:04   #192
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

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You don't have to convince me. As I said, after sailing many years of without an engine, I'm starting to really enjoy having one.
Perhaps, in honour of your metamorphosis, we could rename this thread

"Engine-less Cursing"
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Old 03-03-2014, 12:11   #193
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

I would like to distance myself from the notion that singing the praises of engine-less-ness is necessarily vilifying those who choose engines.

And while I don't think I speak for everyone who is (broadly) on "my " side of the discussion, I certainly think that's true of most (including Lin P)

So I hope this doesn't descend into a mindless slugging match, with each side mis-portraying and exaggerating the stance taken by the other in order to solidify their own position.
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Old 03-03-2014, 12:58   #194
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

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You SAIL a motor vessel/trawler? Congratulations, I've never seen anyone sail a motor boat. I need to get out more.
You keep dodging the issue. The implication was you NEED to sail and sail as much as possible to get the full or best experieince of "cruising".

Change it to an auxiliary sailboat, motorsailor or whatever you cruise in and it's just as applicable. While some prefer to sail, others prefer to use the modern reliable internal combustion engine when it makes sense.

I suspect some of the issue is people are using "sailing" and "cruising" as interchangable terms, which is a false assumption.
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Old 03-03-2014, 14:33   #195
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

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Perhaps, in honour of your metamorphosis, we could rename this thread

"Engine-less Cursing"
Why cursing?
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