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Old 01-03-2014, 22:20   #166
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit all have had hydraulic start for many years.


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Old 01-03-2014, 22:43   #167
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

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Originally Posted by gjordan View Post
Andrew, several years ago, I asked a friend who did a lot of hydraulic work about a hydraulic starter/pump and he said that the pumps werent designed to be used as motors. Of course there may be specialized ones that he (and I) were not aware of, but my idea was to just use a hydraulic motor with a conventional bendix in place of the electric starter motor.....
Hmm - some pumps are, most aren't. In a few cases which are not, you can nevertheless specifically order a pump variant which will explicitly serve dual (motor & pump) duties.

DC generators are not usually designed to double as motors, either, but will generally handle short spells of motor duty, sometimes indefinitely.

And similarly with hydraulics: even some of those not designed for dual use will not be damaged by occasional 'off-label' duty, especially at low torque. The guys who sell them invariably recommend against it, but they've nothing to lose by overstating their case:

expert advice always assumes idiotic customers, with good reason, because that's when it bites them in the bum. And in any case they would prefer to sell two units rather than one.

Be that as it may: I'm pretty sure Lance Armstrong could start a 2GM, and he's only good for 0.7kW, I believe. My pumps are good for at least an order of magnitude more than that.

Buying on eBay, one does not have the luxury of specifying a special build of a given pump, hence my plan to feel my way into it by disassembling, checking how the sealing cheek-plates are energised, what the implications are for case drains, and all the usual reasons why it might be a problem.

If all seems "good to go" I would then carry out some test starting with no load, and low pressure, and see if anything untoward seemed to be signalled.

I would not consider this for other than emergency use.

I certainly did toy with the idea of a hydraulic motor as a substitute for electric, (with Bendix etc) but for reasons including (but not limited to) those I gave above, I think I probably won't go to that extra trouble. [One reason against not spelled out above: It offers greater reliability but reduced redundancy].

There are, as others have noted, hydraulic starters available off the shelf, although not generally for such small motors. There are also 'windup' starter motors, effectively heavy duty clockwork! available for many diesels, and in this case, they go quite small because they're ideal for the engines fitted to lifeboats.

Having said all this I thank you again for bringing your ideas forward and probing for weaknesses in mine: it's great to revisit these things, and you've reminded me that I may need to rethink the whole notion if my pumps do turn out unsuitable for emergency starting.

Anybody who knows lots about this specific issue, please feel free to chime in>

I much prefer to know I'm wrong than to think I'm right.
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Old 01-03-2014, 23:42   #168
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

Guys, considering the title of this thread, the discussion of alternate vessel power plant issues may not provide the best opportunity for relevant feedback.
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Old 02-03-2014, 05:06   #169
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pirate Re: Engine-free voyaging

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... when Herb Mccormick was interviewing us for the bio he just wrote, he stayed with us for three weeks and we actually listed the tows we were forced to take due to having no internal power plant ...
Thanks again Lin for commenting. Haven't reread your stuff in awhile but just the other day I snagged a well-thumbed copy of the Self Sufficient Sailor from the free bookshelf at the local pub. If someone would pry my arthritic fingers off the keyboard, I'm looking forward to another pleasant read.

I too have heard/read snarky comments about you two accepting tows into harbors and wondered, "SO WOT?" I don't see accepting or being required a tow as lessening the validity of your experiences in any way.

Tom
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Old 02-03-2014, 17:47   #170
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

I think learning to sail as if you have no engine - i.e. using the engine as a convenience not a necessity - could help a lot of folks have far better cruising experience. As a lot of folks have moved from the original post idea on this discussion, I've started a new one under the title of Engine-free sailing.
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Old 02-03-2014, 18:00   #171
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

This is why I'm always telling folks that learning to sail on a small racing catamaran is the best way.

I bought my first sailboat with an engine (a 1974 Bristol 27) in 2011. I started sailing in 1992 on a Hobie 16 and had 3 other catamarans after that.

We raced almost 10 months out of the year in Florida with several distance races which included the yearly 100 miler and several 20-30 mile races.

This type of sailing can teach you tons.
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Old 02-03-2014, 18:20   #172
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

They changed the rules quite awhile ago when backing up at the start line started becoming popular and was creating havoc, you can still back up, but you have no rights anymore:

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documen...20132016Final-[13376].pdf
Section D
22.3 A boat moving astern through the water by backing a sail shall keep
clear of one that is not.

They changed it in match racing also:

C2.9 Rule 22.3 is changed to: A boat moving astern through the water
shall keep clear of one that is not.




Quote:
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Backing under sail will add a bit more pull. If you want to backup, just push the mainsail across to the opposite side once you are head to wind.

Sometimes during catamaran races, folks would pull up to the starting line on course side (OCS) then backup to the legal side. I've backed up just to avoid hitting another boat on a crowded starting line while waiting for the gun.

It appears to me that James Spithill on Luna Rosa backed up during this pre-start to gain the advantage on BMW Oracle and Chris Dixon: (or backed up faster than Dixon)

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Old 02-03-2014, 18:34   #173
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

Interesting.

It was fun to see Chris hoist on that particular petard.

After all, it was him who had pretty much brought the manoeuvre to the attention of his peers, by backing into his opponent intentionally in a dialup and winning an important series as a result (within a couple of years either way of 1991, I vaguely seem to recall)

I remember having a number of scandalous and scurrilous moves almost ready for prime time when that rule change came through (disappointed shrug)

Some of them would have still been legal, but I could see that there was little enthusiasm for smart-alec stunts, and they would stamp down on them sooner rather than later.
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Old 02-03-2014, 21:12   #174
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
We all know what happens...and some of us have seen it go down or have been involved in helping.

The other boats in the anchoring seeing the disaster taking place, jump in their dinghys and zip over to help....knowing that if they don't the boat will be bouncing pin-ball style throught the anchorage in the afternoon wind.
Now Rich...Stop confusing us with real world situations!
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Old 02-03-2014, 22:06   #175
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

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Now Rich...Stop confusing us with real world situations!
And there is always


this
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Old 02-03-2014, 22:20   #176
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

Who needs sails?

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Old 02-03-2014, 22:33   #177
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

Even with favorable winds:

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Old 02-03-2014, 22:36   #178
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

Even the fact that sails are hoisted does not always signify

(if you look closely, that is; whereas this picture looks just fine to landlubbers!)

Here's the Endeavour replica 'sailing' into the main harbour on Banks Peninsula
(or, as the Captain of the prototype misnamed it, "Banks Island")

The replica had a welcoming party to meet.
Schedules and sailing trips are ... not always compatible.
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Old 03-03-2014, 01:25   #179
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pirate Re: Engine-less Cruising

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And there is always


this

I thought the Jolly Roger was an appropriate touch.
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:21   #180
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

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I think you have an amazing idea here. 10hp for 10 minutes pumping up an accum. Would give you the ability to get 100hp out for 1 minute minus losses you might get 100 hp for 45 seconds or 75hp for a full minute. Have you thought of using the same scheme with electric? Then you have the "accumulator" filling with solar as well. Use the same two yanmars turning generators. You might also concider two 20hp identical engines with identical pumps, or generators. That would give you more options for failiures and swapping parts. Assuming the 10 and 30 plan would mean a small pump and a larger pump. Therefore not interchangable.
I hope i dont sound negative just very intrigued myself with this type of thing. My thought was a small yanmar in a car with motors on all four wheels. Hyd or electric.

Andy

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