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Old 28-02-2014, 14:28   #136
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

"would instead buck and writhe and snarl its way laboriously into the eye of wind and sea like a rhinoceros chained to a trampoline."

Lovely turn of phrase, mate. I can't speak for catamarans, but I personally would rather sail than motor straight into it--I think it is far more comfortable! at least in a mono. Too bad you can't tell the man who pays you that simple truth. If they'd just give it a go, they could find out for themselves how much more comfortable they'd be, as well as the ship.

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Old 28-02-2014, 15:29   #137
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

Going from here to there does not seem to be a real issue.

But I wonder how one backs down on an anchor. I seem to spend more time running my engines doing that than actually going somewhere.
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Old 28-02-2014, 15:35   #138
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

Ann, I guess it's a question of wiring. I don't think I've ever known anyone to change from one camp to the other, in any remarkable way.

I certainly tried my best to charm, persuade, cajole, (and if it would not have been wasted time and involved irretrievable loss of status, I would have begged and pled).

It is always torture to me when a wonderful opportunity is summarily dismissed.

Most Western business leaders, it seems to me, are not accustomed to going in one direction when their chosen destination lies in another. Those who were inclined that way would no doubt be dead meat at the issue of their next quarterly report.

And I guess it's entirely possible that will need to change, if a competing business culture which takes a longer, and/or more nuanced view, were to gain sufficient scale to be a real contender.
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Old 28-02-2014, 16:05   #139
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

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Going from here to there does not seem to be a real issue.

But I wonder how one backs down on an anchor. I seem to spend more time running my engines doing that than actually going somewhere.
That is a problem, given how anchorages are ideally windless, and often are when we arrive (fickle as they do be !).

I'm currently designing a hydraulic prop drive, with accumulators to store hydraulic power (which can be generated by repitching the prop and backdriving the hydraulic motor as a pump) for such purposes. Also for running a windlass, and raising the keel.

The installation is intended to have a couple of small diesels, a single cyl 1GM10 Yanmar and a two cylinder of the same design (so spares can be shared - or, in extremis, one engine cannibalised temporarily to keep the other running)

Each engine will be coupled to a (very quiet!) hydraulic pump, so that, depending on requirement, there's a full-load choice of (nominally) 10, 20 or 30 hp, without incurring the inefficiency and corrosion which comes from running a marine diesel at part-load.

For finer modulation, any surplus can be channelled back to the accumulators - whose charging rate is limited only by what's available, on top of which they retain their charge indefinitely.

For short bursts, like repositioning on a wave when making a difficult harbour entry, there will be up to 60hp available at the prop -- for very short bursts, without even firing up a diesel.

I'm not against engines, but I like them to be used in optimal ways, and it just doesn't make sense to me to cart around a big engine on a boat which sails well.

And rightly or wrongly, some of the "moral hazard" of having lots of power on tap is less worrying to me if it's a limited duration option. I'm thinking of gradual loss of emergency skills - not necessarily loss of execution skills (because they can only be kept up by having emergencies, which does not appeal), but loss of pre-emptive planning and imaginative visualisation skills.

(eg: How would I get out of the current predicament if the prop dinged a blade?)

And, on a boat which relies on an engine, the redundancy of two small ones has some appeal, if going off the beaten track for extended periods.

- - - -

As for the difficulties of setting anchors with NO engine: if bad weather is expected, I would row out a Fortress or similar stern anchor and take it to a cockpit winch. I've even used a dinghy anchor to set the main anchor on a small sailboat.
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Old 01-03-2014, 08:23   #140
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

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Going from here to there does not seem to be a real issue.

But I wonder how one backs down on an anchor. I seem to spend more time running my engines doing that than actually going somewhere.
I'm using my engine more these days (a 5hp outboard on a 6600lb boat), but I've never used it to set the anchor. I just let the wind or tide do it and keep a watch on it for a while. My anchor is a CQR 20lb'er.

Maybe it's because the bottom is just better here for anchoring.............
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Old 01-03-2014, 09:02   #141
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

as my engine has FAILED i back my anchor by using wind, as was done in old time sailing.... wind and current work in your favor when you are able to figger them out appropriately.
a purist would be able to back sailboat under sail. we watched our uncle do that as we grew and learned to sail on a 36 ft antique sloop with gaff rigging......built in 1903.....
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Old 01-03-2014, 09:21   #142
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

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as my engine has FAILED i back my anchor by using wind, as was done in old time sailing.... wind and current work in your favor when you are able to figger them out appropriately.
a purist would be able to back sailboat under sail. we watched our uncle do that as we grew and learned to sail on a 36 ft antique sloop with gaff rigging......built in 1903.....
Backing under sail will add a bit more pull. If you want to backup, just push the mainsail across to the opposite side once you are head to wind.

Sometimes during catamaran races, folks would pull up to the starting line on course side (OCS) then backup to the legal side. I've backed up just to avoid hitting another boat on a crowded starting line while waiting for the gun.

It appears to me that James Spithill on Luna Rosa backed up during this pre-start to gain the advantage on BMW Oracle and Chris Dixon: (or backed up faster than Dixon)

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Old 01-03-2014, 09:30   #143
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is fun to watch observers when pulling reverses under sail...many tricks for fun and show....those help on emergencies even when engine woks
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Old 01-03-2014, 09:40   #144
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

In my pure sailing days I dropped the hook as I was sailing and when enough rode was out I cleated it off and when it got to the end it stopped the boat and swung it around to wind which set the anchor and we simply dropped the sails.
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Old 01-03-2014, 09:50   #145
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

What if there is little or no wind? You are at the mercy of the tide. If the anchor isn't digging in, the boat will go where the tide takes it.
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Old 01-03-2014, 09:57   #146
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

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What if there is little or no wind? You are at the mercy of the tide. If the anchor isn't digging in, the boat will go where the tide takes it.
The tide's pull on the boat sets the anchor............usually. I'm going by my experiences here. It may be harder to get the anchor to set in other places.
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Old 01-03-2014, 10:06   #147
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

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The tide's pull on the boat sets the anchor............usually. I'm going by my experiences here. It may be harder to get the anchor to set in other places.
Right, but what if it doesn't grab? Then what?
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Old 01-03-2014, 10:17   #148
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

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Right, but what if it doesn't grab? Then what?
We all know what happens...and some of us have seen it go down or have been involved in helping.

The other boats in the anchoring seeing the disaster taking place, jump in their dinghys and zip over to help....knowing that if they don't the boat will be bouncing pin-ball style throught the anchorage in the afternoon wind.
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Old 01-03-2014, 10:20   #149
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

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Right, but what if it doesn't grab? Then what?
I guess you try again.

The one time my anchor did come loose I found that I had left a line attached to it that I use to secure it to the mount on the bow better. Once I detached that line and redeployed the anchor it held.

I mean this was the weekend from hell. First before the front came through there was a heavy 20-25 knot onshore breeze. I was picturing my boat laying on the beach while I tried to sleep. I was about 60-70 yards from the beach. Eventually, I rigged another anchor in the middle of the night but didn't use it. I was a afraid I might foul the main anchor.

Next night, heavy offshore breeze. Winds gusting to 30 knots, but I was somewhat protected. The GPS was still registering 1.5 knots at times the boat was swinging around so much..

The most boats I have ever seen at this anchorage (Kiptopeke, VA) is about 8 so boat traffic isn't usually a problem. Also, I had a nice protected spot behind the cement ships before the anchor came loose. It was already dark so I didn't pull back up. Just cleared the line and dropped the anchor in again.
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Old 01-03-2014, 10:20   #150
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Re: Engine-less Cruising

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In my pure sailing days I dropped the hook as I was sailing and when enough rode was out I cleated it off and when it got to the end it stopped the boat and swung it around to wind which set the anchor and we simply dropped the sails.
In other threads I have posted my anchoring technique. It is roughly based on what I consider very standard advice. First thing is to pick your spot, which often means looking for a light sandy spot in 8-10 feet of water. Then I get downwind of the spot and when the anchor is hopefully in the middle of the spot lower it along with about 15 feet of chain, making sure the chain does not pile up on the anchor and degrade the anchor's ability to set. Once the boat has drifted back and the slack is out of the chain let out more in maybe 10-20 feet lengths till the chain is seven times the dept of the water. At this point I will start taking bearings of landmarks and get some feel for how the wind and current are combining their forces on the boat. It may take me ten minutes to do this. Once I am OK with the spot I am anchored in and the scope of the chain (based on my depth gauge and the ribbons on the chain showing how much is out) I will set up the bridle, and maybe a snubber. Time to check the bearings I took earlier and turn on the Drag Queen app on my iphone. If things don't look OK I will return to an earlier step in the process, maybe starting over.

If things look OK I will now walk around the boat, tidy up the sails and lines, whatever, spending maybe five minutes. Then I will back down with the motors at maybe half speed. Then I will check the bearings again and reset Drag Queen. While it is not always possible (don't forget I am a Florida Keys and Bahamas guy) I always like to dive the anchor if possible.


I normally think it takes me about 45 minutes to anchor and that backing down is necessary (along with several other things) for me to feel secure at anchor.

YMMV
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