Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 16-06-2010, 08:16   #16
Registered User

Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 318
ColRegs

I believe that under admiralty law, all vessels involved in a collision share some level of responsibility, no matter the circumstances.

Folks, let's all realize that we are out sailing, for fun. It strikes me as not only safe, but decent of us to give way, stay out of the way and stay away from anybody who is WORKING on the water. That means freighters, fisherman and anyone else trying to make a living. We would all certainly let the groundskeeper pass on his mower before we drove a ball at him on a golf course, right?

A few years back a couple on the Chesapeake hove to and went below for a little whoopee one afternoon. A freighter came bearing down on them and the captain ran his vessel aground to avoid a collision. The judge sent the freighter's tug bill for drag-off and the yard repair bill to the sailors, and rightfully so. It was a lot of money.
__________________

__________________
Drew13440 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2010, 08:26   #17
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Unless you have AIS you ain't got a chance - we always give way.
This is the troubling part about AIS: if you've got it, the system increases your margin of safety; if you haven't got it, the system decreases your margin of safety.

If Jessica W. accomplished anything with her voyage, it was to demonstrated that setting the AIS alarm and then going to bed does not constitute a proper watch.

But we knew that, didn't we?
__________________

__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2010, 08:29   #18
Senior Cruiser
 
idpnd's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Almería, ES
Boat: Chiquita 46 - Libertalia
Posts: 1,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew13440 View Post
Folks, let's all realize that we are out sailing, for fun. It strikes me as not only safe, but decent of us to give way, stay out of the way and stay away from anybody who is WORKING on the water. That means freighters, fisherman and anyone else trying to make a living.
Damn right. We should also give permanent right of way to all taxi and lorry drivers over leisure trips on the roads since .. they're just making a living!
__________________
sv Libertalia
idpnd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2010, 13:49   #19
Registered User
 
paradix's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Australasia
Posts: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
I would have liked to see an explanation for the EPL's sudden course change to port immediately preceding the collision.
? ? EPL did not change course, unless you mean being swung around by the solid form of the Silver Yang...
__________________
paradix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2010, 14:12   #20
Registered User

Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 318
IDPND

You'd better give way to the lorries...drive one sometime and you'll understand why
__________________
Drew13440 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2010, 16:45   #21
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: ontario canada
Boat: grampian 26
Posts: 1,743
Collisions

Autopilots are a blessing and a curse. They make long passages bearable but can lead to lax seamanship regarding watch keeping. We had an incident here a few years ago where a 40 something foot power boat cut a small sailboat in half with no injuries or fatalities. The power boat operator went below for some reason with no one on watch and the autopilot engaged. The same applies to GPS, Pick a waypoint and go without due regard to what hazards lie between points A and B.
__________________
perchance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2010, 19:39   #22
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,635
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradix View Post
? ? EPL did not change course, unless you mean being swung around by the solid form of the Silver Yang...
I must have assumed that EPL had altered course based on the attached image and this passage:

Quote:
Ella’s Pink Lady's bow collided with Silver Yang's port side mid-section. The ship had come around to a heading of 024°(T), so the collision was almost square on
Almost square on would indicate EPL was heading about 114° vice 144° - it's probable that you're right and I've misinterpreted the report; it's not very clear.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	epl1.jpg
Views:	95
Size:	40.5 KB
ID:	17119  
__________________
Lodesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2010, 19:43   #23
Registered User
 
paradix's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Australasia
Posts: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
I must have assumed that EPL had altered course based on the attached image and this passage:



Almost square on would indicate EPL was heading about 114° vice 144° - it's probable that you're right and I've misinterpreted the report; it's not very clear.
I think if EPL had rounded up a little at that point it would have been due to interaction with the Silver Yang's bow wave etc. There seems no argument of fact that Jessica was asleep at the time and woken by the impact.
__________________
paradix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2010, 19:48   #24
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
"No matter if you're a three big mast'r,
If she has power she is faster,
Barquentine or sleek square rigger,
If she has power she is bigger
To you yourself you always say
She has power and right of way"
__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2010, 19:55   #25
Registered User
 
paradix's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Australasia
Posts: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
"No matter if you're a three big mast'r,
If she has power she is faster,
Barquentine or sleek square rigger,
If she has power she is bigger
To you yourself you always say
She has power and right of way"
"But if you're sleeping in your pit,
All that learnin' ain't worth ___"
__________________
paradix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2010, 20:05   #26
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,635
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradix View Post
I think if EPL had rounded up a little at that point it would have been due to interaction with the Silver Yang's bow wave etc. There seems no argument of fact that Jessica was asleep at the time and woken by the impact.
That's probably it, but it would have been nice to see all facts stated in the report. I'm surprised also that the report does little to describe the conditions - we understand the sky is clear, half a moon is up and vis was assessed at 11 miles, but no mention of the wind strength/direction or the sea-state.
__________________
Lodesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2010, 20:11   #27
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradix View Post
"But if you're sleeping in your pit,
All that learnin' ain't worth ___"
ROFL!!!
__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2010, 20:14   #28
Registered User
 
paradix's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Australasia
Posts: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
That's probably it, but it would have been nice to see all facts stated in the report. I'm surprised also that the report does little to describe the conditions - we understand the sky is clear, half a moon is up and vis was assessed at 11 miles, but no mention of the wind strength/direction or the sea-state.
I agree. The sea state is described as "slight" in 2.3 para. 3, but the only reference to wind strength/direction is at sunset in 1.3 para. 6: "the wind had freshened from the west". Nothing from later in the night when the collision actually occurred.
__________________
paradix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2010, 21:13   #29
Registered User
 
Astrid's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Northern British Columbia, part of the time in Prince Rupert and part of the time on Moresby Island.
Boat: 50-ft steel Ketch
Posts: 1,885
Send a message via MSN to Astrid Send a message via Yahoo to Astrid
Quote:
? ? EPL did not change course, unless you mean being swung around by the solid form of the Silver Yang...
I agree. Silver Yang's bow wave would have pushed the sail boat out initially, then the suction of the bigger ship passing through the water would have drawn the sailboat back in, much like the collision between the RMS Olympic and HMS Hawke back in 1911.
__________________
'Tis evening on the moorland free,The starlit wave is still: Home is the sailor from the sea, The hunter from the hill.
Astrid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2010, 22:21   #30
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Seattle
Boat: Work: Ships/Tugs Play: Grand Banks 36
Posts: 76
Poor watchkeeping on both vessels, indeed. Either one could have prevented this from happening.

The report made reference to a third mate, so this second mate was not the junior most deck officer (as far as rank). I took the six-months with the license to mean that he received his second mate's license at that time - not that he was completely green. Nevertheless, very poor watchstanding on the Silver Yang.

However, there are some things about Jessica's operation which made me cringe, particularly these two statements:

Quote:
This incident clearly demonstrates the conundrum that exists between long distance solo-sailing and the legal requirements of the COLREGS. Since it was not possible for the yacht‟s skipper to keep a watch by sight and hearing at all times, it was not possible for her to comply with the COLREGS.

...she was not meeting her obligation to keep a proper lookout at all times
and was, at times, placing her safety in the hands of others and relying on them to
maintain a proper lookout and give way to her vessel when necessary.
That is an incredibly selfish and dangerous stance to take and I'm glad that the ATSB made it clear that, in their view, if one can't maintain a watch by sight and hearing at all times, one is by definition, not complying with the COLREGS. I don't care if you're soloing or you have 100 people onboard. If anyone cares to argue that, I could simply say, being analogous with Jessica's reasoning, that the Silver Yang was in perfect compliance with the COLREGS since they thought their size and low speed, combined with bright navigation lights and a clear night meant that they could be lax with their watchkeeping. That argument is also false and solo sailors who believe that this kind of catnapping in coastal waters is acceptable, are also wrong, IMO.

Equally troubling is her failure to notice the Silver Yang within five minutes of the collision. Given the speeds and courses of the vessels and the fact that the Silver Yang was apparently already inside the 2 mile radar guard zone when Jessica set it, that means that the ship was only maybe a mile or so away when she took her last look around the horizon. It's inexcusable to not notice a Panamax-sized ship at that range on a night like that, which was described as having some moonlight.

I don't get mad at having to dodge recreational traffic - it's part of the job, but the fact that they are much more likely to die in a collision than I am doesn't negate the fact that we have a whole career and livelihood on the line if we're involved in any sort of incident involving "negligence" (a subjective term).

I will say that I do have some sympathy (not much) for the second mate who thought the light was further away than it was due to its apparent dimness because I have been in a similar situation. Back when I was a cadet, I remember approaching Charleston, SC in darkness with scattered rain squalls after an eastbound Atlantic crossing and following another ship that was about four to six miles off our stbd bow on a parallel heading. We (the second mate, AB and myself) could see a single white light along the same bearing as that ship on our radar. As we went along, that white light suddenly turned brighter and became interspersed with a red light which promptly zipped across out bow, right to left. It was a small sport fisher, well offshore (50+ nm) and showing up extremely poor on radar, due to the rain and sea clutter. We had assumed (there's that naughty word which came up numerous times in the report) that the light of the small boat was the stern light of the ship, but in reality the stern of the ship was well inside of a squall and out of our visual range. It was a lesson learned for me - both for my then-upcoming professional career and personal boating. I run "one size up" in size/brightness on my own boat than what is required by law.

The report only makes reference to the fact that EPL was equipped with the legal sidelights that were visible for at least one nautical mile. I can't stress enough how poor those small, 1nm rated navigation lights are when viewed from the bridge of a ship. I wish there were more ways to allow people to see the view from a ship's bridge and just how insignificant small vessels appear to be. Through my own recreational sailing and boating, I've been asked more than once about how to increase one's own presence to be more apparent to ships and, while there's little you can do about that in daylight, for at night the number one thing I always recommend are bigger and brighter navigation lights.

Now, as for how the 2/m confused the fixed light of the EPL as a stationary buoy that was somehow maintaining the same relative bearing well of the bow as he was making way, I'll never know.
__________________

__________________
Watermann is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
collision

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ella's Pink Baby . . . (Dolphin) TaoJones Off Topic Forum 5 01-06-2010 13:57
Pink Lady vs Pink Lady SvenG Off Topic Forum 27 18-05-2010 17:39
Report on Sub’ Collision GordMay Pacific & South China Sea 5 21-10-2005 21:48



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 18:19.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.