Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Sigh ... assume whatever you want, and I'll never convince at least one other person that I get (and have for many years) what he is saying about the weather.

There is no forcing people to stop reading between the lines. Amazingly, when people do that, it's always negative things they think up -- never positive.

I assumed nothing. Read my post. I made comments, suggestions and recommendations. Don't see anything about any assumptions.

May I make another observation or draw a conclusion that is strictly my own opinion and assumes nothing at all about you?

Perhaps this whole thread has dissolved into semantical nitpicking? Maybe many of the people responding to this thread are just misunderstanding what you are saying or asking or you are not understanding what they are trying to say?

Regardless, without going back to read the whole thing again I can count at least 5-6 respondents to this thread with many more years and miles of experience than you report, at least 2 with circumnavigations who are all giving very similar advise and replies. Do you think there is a chance that they might perchance have some credible advise?

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Don't feel too bad. We're in good company. It seems that most of the experienced sailors offering advice on this thread that are just as clueless as we are.

I don't get this. I've hung on your every word. I've saved posts of yours. i've carefully considered everything you've said. Please tell me where I said or even implied that you are clueless because I think your observations have been particularly informative.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by skipmac

I assumed nothing. Read my post. I made comments, suggestions and recommendations. Don't see anything about any assumptions.

May I make another observation or draw a conclusion that is strictly my own opinion and assumes nothing at all about you?

Perhaps this whole thread has dissolved into semantical nitpicking? Maybe many of the people responding to this thread are just misunderstanding what you are saying or asking or you are not understanding what they are trying to say?

Regardless, without going back to read the whole thing again I can count at least 5-6 respondents to this thread with many more years and miles of experience than you report, at least 2 with circumnavigations who are all giving very similar advise and replies. Do you think there is a chance that they might perchance have some credible advise?

WHERE did I say they were wrong????

The only thing I said was wrong (and it is) is the notion that severe thunderstorms can be forecasted here with any accuracy. They really can't be unless a big front is coming through. I don't go out under such circumstances, although as I said on a longer cruise such a situation could arise. I wouldn't sign up for it, though.

They can pop up, they can pop up rapidly. They can develop right over your head, as happened to me once. Two or three storms can merge together. USUALLY they dissipate pretty quickly, but not always. In none of this am I talking about tropicals.

I have argued with assumptions that I don't understand the difference between a tropical and a thunderstorm. Really. When people haven't been thinking up scenarios for me that just aren't true, the information has been invaluable. I have a whole file full of saved posts.

There's nothing I can do about inaccurate perceptions.

As for "where I sail," it varies. That's why I used the example of the intracoastal canal. Sometimes I'm there, too. Doesn't mean I'm going to put a drogue out there.

With every sail I try to expand my experience. I don't cling to the coast like a scared bunny, imagining it to be the safest place. Very often it's the worst place to be.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I swore to myself I was not going to post to this thread anymore . . .

Yeah, me too, but it's just hard to resist ain't it !

[carstenb]

Raku

I'll take a shot at explaining. I most instances where someone has tried to answer your questions, the response from you is "my boat is different", "My circumstances are different (I've tried boiling this down so I son't have to do a hundred multiple quotes.)

yes all boats are different. yes storms are different. yes the waters we cruise are different.

that all said, you need to take what has been given (or what you read in some of the truly great books on the subject) and say - hmmmmmm sounds like reasonable advice. I'll think that through.

Becoming defensive, when no attack is made makes for difficult conversation.

[barnakiel]

Amazing to read 110 posts on a subject related to a piece of equipment that spends 99.9% of time in the locker.

Just imagine what happens if one starts a "left or right hand?" toilet thread!

;-)))))))))
b.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

I don't get this. I've hung on your every word. I've saved posts of yours. i've carefully considered everything you've said. Please tell me where I said or even implied that you are clueless because I think your observations have been particularly informative.

No you did not specifically say I was clueless. I, like you, was using a bit of exaggeration for rhetorical purposes and to express some level of frustration like you did with the addition of the headbanging icon. You do so it's within the spirit of the discussion, others do it and it's head banging time?

To be specific, again you did not call me clueless, just disagreed with, disputed, argued with or whatever term you prefer some of the information and suggestions made by me or those I have agreed with or endorsed on this thread.

How can it be that of all the responses questioning your conclusions who collectively have enough experience to circle the globe numerous times including many years and many miles in the exact sailing area you mention are mostly wrong, don't understand you, make incorrect assumptions? Yes there are a few of these, seems to be the nature of posting on this or any other forum, but so many are so wrong?

[foolishsailor]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Amazing to read 110 posts on a subject related to a piece of equipment that spends 99.9% of time in the locker.

Just imagine what happens if one starts a "left or right hand?" toilet thread!

;-)))))))))
b.

Im all about the inside of the roll and I can tell you from decades of experiences and tens of thousands of toilet paper miles that anyone who disagrees is an idiot!

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Erstarzinger has given great advice and explanations, which I am going to print out and keep on board. But he's really not talking about the conditions we encounter doing coastal sailing -- and I'm sure he would agree that the tactics are not entirely applicable. He is teaching us what to do in the open ocean, in high latitudes, in the North Atlantic, in the Southern Ocean, in the places we sail in so far only in our dreams, places which are very, very different from where we sail. It's important to understand the difference, and not misapply the lessons, or the tactics.

hmmm . . . "coastal storm tactics" depend quite a bit on what you mean by coastal and what you mean by tactics. 100 miles off the west coast of Ireland would be rather different than 10 miles off Chicago.

Also, there are always special cases. Just for instance lets say you were distmasted at night 10 miles off Chicago, the wind was blowing 50+ from the land and you did not want to start your motor because there was all sorts of rig stuff in the water. If you had one, putting a para-anchor over the bow would be a reasonable move, to steady the boat into the wind and waves and to slow the drift offshore.

Following up on that example . . . there are really three different cases when 'storm tactics' are used. The first is the classic of big breaking waves which could roll you if they hit beam on, and the storm tactic's objective is to keep you either bow or stern into them. The second is running a queer shaped waves where the steering is having some trouble, and the storm tactic objective is to hold the stern stably into the waves and prevent surfing, all to settle down the steering action (and prevent rounding up and the often subsequent knock-down). The third is to take a 'time-out', to slow or stop the boat so you can rest or repair sometime or just let the stress bleed off for a while.

The third is a perfectly reasonable coastal tactic and why my first recommendation was to learn to fore reach (if the boat did not heave-to).

It's possible you might want to do the second, but there are non-drag device tactical ways to do it (like sail selection and trim) that are probably more appropriate for coastal and I would try before using a drogue. A drogue in near coastal waters runs some risks - of snagging something with the drogue or having a power boat pass behind you can get caught in the drogue.

You are really unlikely to have to do the first in 'coastal sailing'. Usually you can get to harbor before those sort of waves build up.

[salticrak]

Thank you all for contributing to this long drawn out discussion.I for one have no idea what i am doing and have found these posts most informative,who knows the knowledge here may save a boat,life etc.This has been most enlightening and i am pretty sure alot of others in the future will find the experience and musings here of some help. BRAVO

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Raku

I'll take a shot at explaining. I most instances where someone has tried to answer your questions, the response from you is "my boat is different", "My circumstances are different (I've tried boiling this down so I son't have to do a hundred multiple quotes.)

yes all boats are different. yes storms are different. yes the waters we cruise are different.

that all said, you need to take what has been given (or what you read in some of the truly great books on the subject) and say - hmmmmmm sounds like reasonable advice. I'll think that through.

Becoming defensive, when no attack is made makes for difficult conversation.

Pointing out how my boat differs from someone else's isn't defensive, and I have not felt defensive in this conversation except when one person got repeatedly snide. In fact then I didn't feel "defensive," but if I'm "shoved" on line I push back. Sometimes people who shove don't like that. Oh well.

No attack has been made, and I don't feel "defensive" about anything. Lots of people here have given great advice, but I've got to tell you, I'm reading Hinz book, and *all* of his information if qualified and broken out depending on the type of boat it is. Boat design makes a difference in this issue.

I'm not the one here making it about me. If I say "But my boat ..." whatever -- guess what? I'm looking for clarification. And, according to Hinz, I am right about that.

It sounds to me, frankly, as if you are the one who got defensive. You seemed to think I was going to do all these things close to shore. I smiled and asked "how close?" You were making assumptions. Incorrect assumptions don't lead to fruitful conversations.

This was an interesting discussion when it was about drogues and sea anchors.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Amazing to read 110 posts on a subject related to a piece of equipment that spends 99.9% of time in the locker.

Just imagine what happens if one starts a "left or right hand?" toilet thread!

;-)))))))))
b.

No, that debate is over vs. under, and CLEARLY the only correct way is over.

Yeah, that sea anchor won't be out much -- hopefully, never -- but until people got testy it was a really informative discussion.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by skipmac

No you did not specifically say I was clueless. I, like you, was using a bit of exaggeration for rhetorical purposes and to express some level of frustration like you did with the addition of the headbanging icon. You do so it's within the spirit of the discussion, others do it and it's head banging time?

To be specific, again you did not call me clueless, just disagreed with, disputed, argued with or whatever term you prefer some of the information and suggestions made by me or those I have agreed with or endorsed on this thread.

How can it be that of all the responses questioning your conclusions who collectively have enough experience to circle the globe numerous times including many years and many miles in the exact sailing area you mention are mostly wrong, don't understand you, make incorrect assumptions? Yes there are a few of these, seems to be the nature of posting on this or any other forum, but so many are so wrong?

Why is it that you feel so driven to repeat that over and over? I only disagreed with you on one thing -- whether big storms can pop up fast here or not. You say no, I say yes. You have your experience, and I have mine. The way it comes across to me (this will not be your perception, I predict) is that you don't like it that I disagreed with you on this -- not on sailing, not on the equipment in discussion, but regarding the unpredictability of thunderstorms.

I've complimented you. I've told you I was putting posts of yours into a file. I've thanked you for information you gave me. But one time I disagreed with you, and boy is *your* dander up. Not mine -- yours.

Asking questions is *not* disagreeing with someone. It's just asking a question.

I will freely admit that I ignore the opinion of someone who has not used some form of the equipment in question, but you're the one who's all worked up.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

hmmm . . . "coastal storm tactics" depend quite a bit on what you mean by coastal and what you mean by tactics. 100 miles off the west coast of Ireland would be rather different than 10 miles off Chicago.

Also, there are always special cases. Just for instance lets say you were distmasted at night 10 miles off Chicago, the wind was blowing 50+ from the land and you did not want to start your motor because there was all sorts of rig stuff in the water. If you had one, putting a para-anchor over the bow would be a reasonable move, to steady the boat into the wind and waves and to slow the drift offshore.

Following up on that example . . . there are really three different cases when 'storm tactics' are used. The first is the classic of big breaking waves which could roll you if they hit beam on, and the storm tactic's objective is to keep you either bow or stern into them. The second is running a queer shaped waves where the steering is having some trouble, and the storm tactic objective is to hold the stern stably into the waves and prevent surfing, all to settle down the steering action (and prevent rounding up and the often subsequent knock-down). The third is to take a 'time-out', to slow or stop the boat so you can rest or repair sometime or just let the stress bleed off for a while.

The third is a perfectly reasonable coastal tactic and why my first recommendation was to learn to fore reach (if the boat did not heave-to).

It's possible you might want to do the second, but there are non-drag device tactical ways to do it (like sail selection and trim) that are probably more appropriate for coastal and I would try before using a drogue. A drogue in near coastal waters runs some risks - of snagging something with the drogue or having a power boat pass behind you can get caught in the drogue.

You are really unlikely to have to do the first in 'coastal sailing'. Usually you can get to harbor before those sort of waves build up.

I agree with you on all of that, especially the notion that a drogue is not a good idea near the shore (I exaggerated that to the intra-coastal just to make the point).

Quite honestly I don't think I would have thought of using the sea anchor to slow the boat if the rig was in the water. i suppose it would depend on where the rig was, but a very real concern would be what effect the rig would have on the boat's position to the waves.

As I said before, I could see using the sea anchor -- in open water, of course, a qualification we should all just agree isn't necessary any more (fingers crossed) -- to steady the boat and give people a break.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by foolishsailor

Im all about the inside of the roll and I can tell you from decades of experiences and tens of thousands of toilet paper miles that anyone who disagrees is an idiot!

Well, this thread has already headed into the toilet so why not...

Have ever noticed that women tend to choose "A" and men tend choose "B" when installing a new roll of toilet paper?

To explore this behavior a bit further, I once gave a lesbian friend, with bi-sexual tendencies, a roll of toilet paper to install. I later looked to see which choice she made. True to her gender trend she chose "A".

Did Freud cover this????