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Old 07-09-2012, 17:02   #196
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

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Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post

...

My boat has a rather short mast (actual cutter rig), and with the main triple reefed and the staysail double reefed, I have a pretty tiny amount of sail up. Heaves-to rather easily with a almost-full keel.

....
Something to consider on a cutter rig: On a previous monohull cutter I owned, I had the staysail set-up so that I could reef it to storm jib size quickly and easily. The sail was relatively heavily built and the storm jib reef points were very strongly reinforced. Ran this sail plan in 65kts gusting 85kts and 25-30ft seas -- handled beautifully.

And, in those conditions would heave-to on just this little bit of sail...when not hove-to got over 10 knots out of about 36 feet of water line!
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Old 07-09-2012, 17:24   #197
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
A drogue would have allowed us to set the autopilot and relax a bit. Ever since that experience I've carried a drogue. A gale rider. I'm happy to report that I've never had to use it other than to practice deploying it.

I keep it stowed next to the spare rudder. Those are two pieces of gear I hope never to have to use, but two items that give me enormous peace of mind just knowing they're there.
Did you not stream anything?

rode, spare anchor?
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Old 08-09-2012, 05:49   #198
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Spectra and Dyneema are amazing products, no doubt, but I'm not going to experiment with my sea anchor using them. I would absolutely use it to replace a popped shroud ... Now that I think about it, I think I'll get a hank of that on board. But I'm going to stick with chain for the sea anchor.
Raku, exactly what do you mean here?

Are you planning to use a small length of chain just where the rode leaves the boat (bow roller etc) and then a rope rode or are you planning to use an all chain rode on your sea anchor?
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Old 08-09-2012, 07:01   #199
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Raku, exactly what do you mean here?

Are you planning to use a small length of chain just where the rode leaves the boat (bow roller etc) and then a rope rode or are you planning to use an all chain rode on your sea anchor?

Short piece of chain at the boat end of the rode.
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Old 08-09-2012, 07:55   #200
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

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Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
Ran this sail plan in 65kts gusting 85kts and 25-30ft seas -- handled beautifully.

Really . . . where and when were you sailing in "65kts gusting 85kts'?

Why did you even have a storm jib up? Usually bare poles are much more than adequate in those sort of wind strengths.


And, in those conditions would heave-to on just this little bit of sail

Really, on just a storm jib? Very few boats will heave-to with that sail configuration. The storm jib will drive the boat off and there is no sail behind the mast to balance it and drive the boat back up. So, most boats with that sail configuration would end up unstable, spending a lot of time reaching at speed and then luffing up hard as the rudder bites.
......
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Old 08-09-2012, 08:43   #201
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

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It sure is! Those isolated localized thunderstorms that they forecast everyday in the summer can be quite atrocious. Good thing you got those drogues to get you through the bay!

How nice for you that you find cheap shots amusing. Does it fill your day?

I started learning to sail 4 1/2 years ago while still recovering from breast cancer. I was born with cerebral palsy. In spite of that I've learned to sail, bought a bigger boat, and moved aboard it. Every single time I take it out, I stretch myself in one way or another. This is part of that stretch. I sail with other people; I also single-hand it. I believe I'd like you to do all I have done in the last 4 1/2 years with legs that don't cooperate in any real way.

You think I don't have to give extra attention to how to manage my boat in storms under those circumstances?

If you find delight in the behavior you just exhibited, I'm sad for you. While you're sitting there attempting to humiliate others (it takes two; instead of being humiliated I've made an unpleasant judgment about you), I'm out there breaking barriers for myself -- repeatedly.

If you want to believe I sail in Boca Ciega Bay only (it is the only route to the Gulf and the many destinations possible there), go right ahead. Meanwhile I will go on sailing and stretching myself. I think it's a shame that such things bring you joy, but it's your life.

Buh-bye.
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Old 08-09-2012, 09:08   #202
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A few answers to questions posed:

The spare rudder is a Scanmar SOS rudder. The mounts are permanently fixed to my transom, and it only takes a few minutes to install. (At least in flat water. Putting the thing on in a storm offshore will be a chore, but I can do it using my davits.)

We were prepared to tow warps and to run under bare poles, and probably would have had the gale lasted much longer. The problem was that we were hand steering the whole time, quite actively in 14' following seas, in order to make certain the boat didn't broach when it surfed down the swells. After two sleepless nights, my main concern was crew fatigue.

As to the question of wind. (People earlier in the thread were talking about the problem being waves, not wind.) As far as I'm concerned, 40 knot winds are problematic once you're in them for an extended time. Coastal foulies won't cut it at that point. You're cold, you can't hear each other scream, the coffee blows right out of your mug, and a gust flattens you against the wheel. I'll never forget when the gale finally passed and the wind dropped to 30 knots--it seemed like nothing. When it finally fell to 20 knots, we knew we'd made it because we could hand the helm duties over to the autopilot; one of the crew joked that we ought to set the spinnaker and get the boat back to surfing. But the three of us were so weary at that point I don't think our combined effort could have pulled the chute up through the hatch.

It's all about fatigue once you're out in a storm. The boat never had a problem, and never once broached in two days running through a gale. But the crew was beat.

That's why I carry a drogue these days.
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Old 08-09-2012, 09:19   #203
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
A few answers to questions posed:

The spare rudder is a Scanmar SOS rudder. The mounts are permanently fixed to my transom, and it only takes a few minutes to install. (At least in flat water. Putting the thing on in a storm offshore will be a chore, but I can do it using my davits.)

We were prepared to tow warps and to run under bare poles, and probably would have had the gale lasted much longer. The problem was that we were hand steering the whole time, quite actively in 14' following seas, in order to make certain the boat didn't broach when it surfed down the swells. After two sleepless nights, my main concern was crew fatigue.

As to the question of wind. (People earlier in the thread were talking about the problem being waves, not wind.) As far as I'm concerned, 40 knot winds are problematic once you're in them for an extended time. Coastal foulies won't cut it at that point. You're cold, you can't hear each other scream, the coffee blows right out of your mug, and a gust flattens you against the wheel. I'll never forget when the gale finally passed and the wind dropped to 30 knots--it seemed like nothing. When it finally fell to 20 knots, we knew we'd made it because we could hand the helm duties over to the autopilot; one of the crew joked that we ought to set the spinnaker and get the boat back to surfing. But the three of us were so weary at that point I don't think our combined effort could have pulled the chute up through the hatch.

It's all about fatigue once you're out in a storm. The boat never had a problem, and never once broached in two days running through a gale. But the crew was beat.

That's why I carry a drogue these days.
THANK YOU.

In the incident that started my thinking on this, the fellow was sailing single-handed. I think exhaustion could come into play sooner rather than later. Could be wrong.

Of course I'm only 66, so no worries ...
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Old 08-09-2012, 09:36   #204
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

We deployed things running in heavy seas and I like to believe they helped keep our boat better aligned with the direction of the main wave train. However, while they may be doing just this, they will at the same time limit your ability to adjust your course to the single off, yet probably single-off'ly dangerous too, secondary/interference waves.

I think the parachute is a very nice device to deploy if there is a lee shore and there is no other help than to try and 'anchor' the boat mid-water. I will probably buy or build one. I have talked to many skippers who ran into various degrees of issues and dangers while deploying and using parachutes. I have read books and articles (most of them by the Pardeys) where some sailors claim the parachute is a great device when deployed with skill and matched with the right boat.

So my two cents today are that whatever device one selects, it is good to have more than one option ready to be deployed and, if practicable, try to deploy them at least once in a normal storm before having to deploy them in a bad one.

Last but not least I think that while some boat designs will safely go thru a storm with help from a device, it would be not wise for a skipper of a different boat design to make any assumptions about usability of this specific device on their own boat. We only know as much of our boats as we have tested them.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 08-09-2012, 09:56   #205
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
We deployed things running in heavy seas and I like to believe they helped keep our boat better aligned with the direction of the main wave train. However, while they may be doing just this, they will at the same time limit your ability to adjust your course to the single off, yet probably single-off'ly dangerous too, secondary/interference waves.

I think the parachute is a very nice device to deploy if there is a lee shore and there is no other help than to try and 'anchor' the boat mid-water. I will probably buy or build one. I have talked to many skippers who ran into various degrees of issues and dangers while deploying and using parachutes. I have read books and articles (most of them by the Pardeys) where some sailors claim the parachute is a great device when deployed with skill and matched with the right boat.

So my two cents today are that whatever device one selects, it is good to have more than one option ready to be deployed and, if practicable, try to deploy them at least once in a normal storm before having to deploy them in a bad one.

Last but not least I think that while some boat designs will safely go thru a storm with help from a device, it would be not wise for a skipper of a different boat design to make any assumptions about usability of this specific device on their own boat. We only know as much of our boats as we have tested them.

Cheers,
b.

THANK YOU.

I said the same thing about the drogue and was criticized (potential problems steering properly for ornery waves). But I've been in a heavy following sea (heavy for that small boat), with the boat repeatedly trying to broach in the trough, and I don't really want to go there again. I want multiple solutions.

The thing is, the Pardeys have it down to a science now. They know their boat and their equipment very well. They sail in such troubled waters with remarkable regularity. My boat is not a blue water boat and it will never have their boat's track record. I'm not going to go there at my age with my boat. Doesn't mean I'll never be far enough off shore to need any of this equipment.

And it's very clear that boat design makes a very big difference. A retired marine architect, whose name most here would recognize, immediately told me to buy both drogue and sea anchor. But he knows me well and knows I will read about it, and then practice it.

I already know my boat wants to forereach when hove to. I have seen enough reports of what i think of now as the "Pardey slick" to give it serious consideration.

What a helpful thread this has been, and thank you for your post above.
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Old 08-09-2012, 10:31   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames
I already know my boat wants to forereach when hove to. I have seen enough reports of what i think of now as the "Pardey slick" to give it serious consideration.
Have you got a fin keel? If so, forget about sailing the Pardey slick. Rather, put the jib away, reef down to the third reef on the main, and let the boat forereach. Control your stall angle with the traveler, if you have to.
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Old 08-09-2012, 11:06   #207
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

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Have you got a fin keel? If so, forget about sailing the Pardey slick. Rather, put the jib away, reef down to the third reef on the main, and let the boat forereach. Control your stall angle with the traveler, if you have to.

I have a fin keel and freeboard high enough that I was able to sail my boat (with 90 turn to port) into a slip when my steering was hooked up wrong. Fresh breeze, but nothing dramatic. From the "right direction" at the time, but I know this boat (even with bare poles) really catches the wind.

There are times when forereaching just isn't a good idea. I'll experiment with the chute. If I can't make it work that could be operator error but I'm going to give it a go.

Here's one suggestion I've found:

Next time you're in this situation on this type of boat, try rigging a small flat riding sail off the backstay and sheet it down hard to somewhere on deck (assuming you have the sea anchor set from the bow). The aerodynamic drag of this sail will generate enough moment to counter the hydrodynamic lift produced by the keel and keep the boat tracking into the wind and waves. The wheel or tiller should be on center.

Relaxed riding on a sea anchor - Ocean Navigator - January/February 2003
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Old 08-09-2012, 13:41   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReMetau

It sure is! Those isolated localized thunderstorms that they forecast everyday in the summer can be quite atrocious. Good thing you got those drogues to get you through the bay!
LMAO. !!! Good one
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Old 08-09-2012, 20:07   #209
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

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Originally Posted by ice View Post
....

Quote:
Originally Posted by belizesailor
Ran this sail plan in 65kts gusting 85kts and 25-30ft seas -- handled beautifully.

Really . . . where and when were you sailing in "65kts gusting 85kts'?

Why did you even have a storm jib up? Usually bare poles are much more than adequate in those sort of wind strengths.


And, in those conditions would heave-to on just this little bit of sail

Really, on just a storm jib? Very few boats will heave-to with that sail configuration. The storm jib will drive the boat off and there is no sail behind the mast to balance it and drive the boat back up. So, most boats with that sail configuration would end up unstable, spending a lot of time reaching at speed and then luffing up hard as the rudder bites.


...... ..

Gulf of Mexico about 150nm out of Port Aransas, TX. My crew estimated conditions to be worse than this, which I did not believe, so I went back and looked at NOAA data and that's where the numbers came from -- I was a bit too preoccupied to be collecting data at the time.

Bare poles would have certainly been adequate to maintain boat speed, I expect we would have still done 5-6 knots, but the storm jib gave us better control. Lots of rigs and commercial traffic in this part of the Gulf so having better boat control was important (I assigned a crew member to full-time navigation duties and threatened to execute anyone who so much as talked to him)

Yes, hove-to just fine. We were underway in these conditions initially, but I was the only one aboard with significant heavy weather helming experience and a helming error in these conditions could have been catastrophic. Fatigue sets in pretty fast in these conditions so I drove the boat for a while and then we hove-to and rode out the rest of it -- comfortable enough that one crew member was nice enough to make coffee for us! (the seas were big and building, but typically not breaking badly)

As you mention, I would normally heave-to with some main up to balance the boat and help keep her head up to windward, but we were already running under storm jib alone so we tried this sail plan first. I think a primary reason that she hove-to well under this configuration is that this was a cutter rig with the staysail set up to reef to storm jib size so the resulting CE would be low and near the CLR (low and just forward of the mast) as opposed to having a storm jib rigged on the forestay which would move the CE much further forward. This I think resulted in considerably less forces pushing the bow off the wind. The boat also had a relatively full keel so had good lateral resistance characteristics (and normally hove-to quite well under other sail plans and conditions). Note: I've never analyzed this before, so these are my conjectures, but I was just damn glad she did.

With relatively inexperienced crew aboard, so that I was doing most of boat handling, I was deeply fatigued by this point. I monitored the motion of the boat for a while to make sure we were ridding OK then lay down and slept like I was dead -- rest of the crew on watch and navigation duty still of course.
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Old 08-09-2012, 21:15   #210
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

This may have already been mentioned, but any sailor interested in this subject would serve himself well by a carefull reading of this document:

http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/pd...uardreport.pdf
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