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Old 07-09-2012, 02:08   #166
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

Read an intersting article where a vessel hove to under a deep reefed main and a galerider drogue streamed off the weather bow and leading abaft the beam. It stopped the fore reaching and the boat just made a bit of leeway and stayed in the slick.
Aluminium hulled boat of some 44 feet in length. Worked for them. They discussed the Pardey method of a para anchor on a bridle but reckoned their boat was too big for this to work
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Old 07-09-2012, 05:42   #167
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

Boy oh boy, sometimes, actually more and more lately it seems, posting with experience and knowledge behind one just seems to open one up to abuse.
I am so sorry I got into this thread.
Raku knows it all, has seen things (like huge, long storms that are not t-storms off the coast of Fla) none of us who have been doing this sailing thing for a long time have seen and has a neighbor that got a small boat going 22 knots for 4 hours.
She has just plain beaten me down.
Please don't bother to respond Raku, I won't be reading any more posts on this thread.
I'm done.
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Old 07-09-2012, 06:21   #168
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

Dockhead I'm done discussing this with you. I respect you and in fact I resepect everyon in this thread, but I don't want *anyone* forcing me to think a certain way about this before I've even tested it. The sea anchor helps with comfort for a variety of reasons that make being in this mythic storm easier. That's what I mean by "broader comprehension." There's nothing more for me to do until I've tried it, and then I'll come back and report. If I spend an hour untangling it from my keel because the water just wasn't stiff enough, oh well ... someone else will know to wait before testing.

Maybe we're just to the point that we're splitting hairs. Some people are hair splitters, while that's when others get up to use the head. I'm in that second category.
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Old 07-09-2012, 06:21   #169
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

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Originally Posted by nigel1 View Post
Read an intersting article where a vessel hove to under a deep reefed main and a galerider drogue streamed off the weather bow and leading abaft the beam. It stopped the fore reaching and the boat just made a bit of leeway and stayed in the slick.
Aluminium hulled boat of some 44 feet in length. Worked for them. They discussed the Pardey method of a para anchor on a bridle but reckoned their boat was too big for this to work
That's John Harries on Morgan's Cloud. Good friends of ours. They have a terrific website. They have done that 'galerider off the bow' thing once and it's worth reading the detailed write-up. It helped solve a specific problem in a specific situation but I am not sure I would consider it a 'general purpose tactic/solution'. What the write up shows very clearly is that, if you understand your boat and the physics of what you are trying to accomplish, you can often come up with a good solution to a specific problem that is not in any of the books.
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Old 07-09-2012, 08:55   #170
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

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That's John Harries on Morgan's Cloud. Good friends of ours. They have a terrific website. They have done that 'galerider off the bow' thing once and it's worth reading the detailed write-up. It helped solve a specific problem in a specific situation but I am not sure I would consider it a 'general purpose tactic/solution'. What the write up shows very clearly is that, if you understand your boat and the physics of what you are trying to accomplish, you can often come up with a good solution to a specific problem that is not in any of the books.

Exactly. I wonder how many people have had something like a Galerider but have never actually used it? But I wouldn't want to have it and not even test it, but then end up in a situation where I thought it *might* work, and yet have no clue how my boat will respond to it.

One option I'm considering for testing it is to have it set up on a Pardey bridle, but actually leave that slack and bring the rode forward to the bow first. Then if that doesn't work well, I can shift easily to the Pardey.

The weather we have in the Gulf right now is a classic example for not going out unless you're very familiar with interpreting weather conditions AND have a heavy weather plan. That spinoff of Isaac (they're calling it the "Spawn of Isacc") will, I think, be just as unpredictable as Isaac itself was.

I've canceled the weekend cruise I was going on as it would have been across Tampa Bay, which is actually for the most part a pretty shallow body of water.
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Old 07-09-2012, 09:27   #171
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
One option I'm considering for testing it is to have it set up on a Pardey bridle, but actually leave that slack and bring the rode forward to the bow first. Then if that doesn't work well, I can shift easily to the Pardey.
One thing it might be worth bearing in mind is the case studies in Heavy Weather Sailing. From memory, every boat with a rope through a fairlead or the anchor roller to a sea anchor from the bow chaffed through, even with chaff protection. The only ones which stayed were either chain or steel wire rope where it touched the boat.

It's well worth getting hold of a copy, as is Hal Roths Handling Storms.
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Old 07-09-2012, 09:40   #172
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

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One thing it might be worth bearing in mind is the case studies in Heavy Weather Sailing. From memory, every boat with a rope through a fairlead or the anchor roller to a sea anchor from the bow chaffed through, even with chaff protection. The only ones which stayed were either chain or steel wire rope where it touched the boat.

It's well worth getting hold of a copy, as is Hal Roths Handling Storms.

Yes, I've seen that. I don't think it's an issue just for testing it, but particularly because I use double-braided anchor rode, it's an issue. I really like the ease of handling, but it does chafe easily. One suggestion I saw suggested actually putting the chafe protection on the boat hardware and not on the rode itself. Another suggestion is to move the 'nip' perhaps as often as every hour.

I suspect that I'll learn a whole lot from this process, not necessarily all of it directly tied to sea anchors and drogues. For instance, when I test the drogues (I have two) I'm also going to experiment with using them to steer.

It will probably turn into a really fun 3-4 day sailing adventure with good friends.

Side note -- boy is the weather unstable here. I just looked up to see dark clouds moving in from the west. That's not what they forecast ...
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Old 07-09-2012, 09:53   #173
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

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chaff ..... The only ones which stayed were either chain or steel wire rope where it touched the boat.

.
Or, a bit more modern . . . spectra single braid, which is extremely chafe resistant and rather easier to handle and can be less damaging to the boat than chain or wire.
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Old 07-09-2012, 09:57   #174
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

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Or, a bit more modern . . . spectra single braid, which is extremely chafe resistant and rather easier to handle and can be less damaging to the boat than chain or wire.

I think if I were in a situation where I really felt the urgent need of that sea anchor I wouldn't want to pick that time to experiment. Not only would it be a big loss, but then I wouldn't have the tool I believed I needed any more. Obviously you move on to the next plan, but Spectra and Dyneema cut easily and I can't imagine that it's as chafe resistant as chain.
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Old 07-09-2012, 09:59   #175
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

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Or, a bit more modern . . . spectra single braid, which is extremely chafe resistant and rather easier to handle and can be less damaging to the boat than chain or wire.
You first then
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Old 07-09-2012, 10:02   #176
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

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You first then

Nice try!
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Old 07-09-2012, 10:03   #177
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

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You first then
I have 14 year old spectra single braid reef lines on my mainsail. Almost zero chafe. Finshing trawlers have mostly converted from wire to dyneema single braid (same stuff as spectra) and it lasts longer in that application.

Its pretty well proven stuff.

As chafe resistant as chain . . . no . . . . but (better than wire in bending applications) damn good and rather less likily to cut your boat apart if it jumps around.
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Old 07-09-2012, 10:07   #178
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

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Originally Posted by ice View Post
I have 14 year old spectra single braid reef lines on my mainsail. Almost zero chafe. Finshing trawlers have mostly converted from wire to dyneema single braid (same stuff as spectra) and it lasts longer in that application.

Its pretty well proven stuff.

As chafe resistant as chain . . . no . . . . but (better than wire in bending applications) damn good and rather less likily to cut your boat apart if it jumps around.

Spectra and Dyneema are amazing products, no doubt, but I'm not going to experiment with my sea anchor using them. I would absolutely use it to replace a popped shroud ... Now that I think about it, I think I'll get a hank of that on board. But I'm going to stick with chain for the sea anchor.
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Old 07-09-2012, 10:16   #179
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

I think that closed fairleads for the drogue bridle and for that matter deploying a chute off the bow would be almost necessary while pitching in steep seas in order to keep from fouling on all the claptrap that is usually hung on a cruising yacht.

In setting up the safety gear when leaving the Great Lakes for the ocean on a two year circumnavigation of the North Atlantic I did an analysis on gale/storm countermeasures for our full keeled heavy Mason 44. Simply put our plan was to hove-to when wind and waves made it too hard to sail. When extreme conditions manifested and hoving to was no longer a good option we would run off using a series drogue on a bridle.

Sails: put a 3rd reef point in the main. Purchased a storm trysail to go with the cutter.

Series Drogue: designed and built for the Mason. Purchased two closed fairleads and a spectra bridle.

We never hove to and never used the drogue. Modern weather forcasting coupled with an Iridium Sat Phone to get the GRIBs allowed us to see the lows 3 to 4 days out. We then just side-stepped the extreme winds. We ended up sidestepping 4 major lows on our trip from Halifax to Ireland in 2010.
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Old 07-09-2012, 11:49   #180
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Re: Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

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Originally Posted by ice View Post
I have 14 year old spectra single braid reef lines on my mainsail. Almost zero chafe. Finshing trawlers have mostly converted from wire to dyneema single braid (same stuff as spectra) and it lasts longer in that application.

Its pretty well proven stuff.

As chafe resistant as chain . . . no . . . . but (better than wire in bending applications) damn good and rather less likily to cut your boat apart if it jumps around.
Actually, i work with the stuff now and again, tech12 on winches, and it is really quite incredible. But knowing all that logically won't stop being huddled down below worrying about it. Might be no difference in the real world but if it makes you feel safer then chain it is.
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