Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Snore

Thanks!

The rather spirited discussion has yielded some great info from some very seasoned sailors.

I do have one question. Mastering any new skill is the result of training and repetition. One can learn and practice heaving to, or fore-reaching in fairly benign conditions.

Besides intentionally putting your boat at risk, is there a way to practice deploying and retrieving drogues or sea anchors?

Thanks

Bill

I hope the people here have practiced basic sailing skills if they needed to.

I will post here regarding how practice with the sea anchor and drogue go. I'm also going to try steering with the drogue while I'm at it.

[estarzinger]

Regarding 'practice':

I can suggest two things: One is when some strong wind is forecast to tie to a mooring buoy using your planed system to tie to the drag devices, using the proposed rode (only a short bit of it), bridle system and hardware. You (hopefully) don't get big waves at the buoy, but at least you see how the boat lies to the wind and how easy the hardware is to adjust. This is particularly important for the Pardey approach which depends on a somewhat tricky bridle set-up. Two is to go out on a 25kts day and deploy and recover. Again you don't get big waves but at least you can identify and work out the most obvious problems. You can use the motor to add extra loading to the drag devices.

Of course neither of these things will simulate the sea state/waves in 50kts at sea, and I don't know anyway to do that safely, BUT they will identify and help you work out the most obvious challanges/problems and give you a little extra confidence and knowledge and are well worthwhile doing.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Regarding 'practice':

I can suggest two things: One is when some strong wind is forecast to tie to a mooring buoy using your planed system to tie to the drag devices, using the proposed rode (only a short bit of it), bridle system and hardware. You (hopefully) don't get big waves at the buoy, but at least you see how the boat lies to the wind and how easy the hardware is to adjust. This is particularly important for the Pardey approach which depends on a somewhat tricky bridle set-up. Two is to go out on a 25kts day and deploy and recover. Again you don't get big waves but at least you can identify and work out the most obvious problems. You can use the motor to add extra loading to the drag devices.

Of course neither of these things will simulate the sea state/waves in 50kts at sea, and I don't know anyway to do that safely, BUT they will identify and help you work out the most obvious challanges/problems and give you a little extra confidence and knowledge and are well worthwhile doing.

Well, that's pretty much the plan, except there are no mooring buoys around here where you could safely deploy a sea anchor. Just too congested.

I think I just have to bite the bullet and put the thing out, with help aboard (skilled people) to help get it back in if necessary. Also, if I did it at a mooring, how would I know if the sea anchor actually stopped/slowed the boat or not?

I need to know whether it will actually pull the boat into the wind. it's going to do that anyway on a mooring.

I would especially want to practice with the Pardey, because I suspect that how it's actually set would vary from boat to boat. I have to finish their book before I try that. Right now I'm in the middle of all their horror stories they open the book with.


I haven't seen any mention of a trip line on a drogue.

[carstenb]

Evans,

Raku just asked about trip lines.

I can see that a trip line would make recovery much easier, but doesn't the drogue act in water like towing a parachute behind a car? Meaning it spins? Assuming that it does, then only way to rig a trip line would be to put a small fender or something similar on it, allowing you to grab this when you motor back to retrieve.

Logic tells me that the trip line, configured this way will stay behind the drogue, but I have a sneaking suspicion that is not the case. If the trip line fouls the drogue - then all h*ll breaks loose and the drogue now becomes a obstacle not a benefit.

This leads me to think that it is best to avoid trip lines.

To our moderator - I sail the Balitc, more or less the same weather as the brits, although the waves here are smaller. I've been caught out in 50-55knts winds and the only tactic I've had to employ up to now was seriously reefing down and running with the wind. I've also been caught by a Culunimbus with Anvil storm - winds went from 10-15 knts to 40+ in less than 5 seconds. My wife and I were not very experienced back then, we got knocked down. It took a while but we managed to recover, reef (everything we had) and then we could sail. That storm put 2 (unprepared -. just like us) boats on the rocks (they did not manage to get under managable sail again), 1 boat had a kevlar sail split right up the middle and one boat lost the top of the mast.

[Wotname]

FWIW regarding the practice deployment of para-anchors, I initially deployed it in light conditions (10 - 12 kts) to get the hang of the rode, bridles, cleats etc then tried in more moderate conditions (18 - 20 Kts) and then again around 25 Kts.

Haven't had the opportunity to try it in any heavier weather .

I have found the retrieval to be the most difficult - so far I have managed not to wrap the rode around the rudder (or prop) but have managed to wrap it around the keel

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

....Regarding 'practice'...

An extension of this suggestion is that you might also arrange to have a more experienced sailor or instructor aboard.

A sailing school where I used to teach offered a heavy weather sailing clinic. We had an on-call list of students who were interested. We would watch the forecast and when we were going to have over 30 knots of wind (fairly common in that venue), we would start calling those on the list till we filled the clinic (limited to 4 students).

We would practice reefing, sailing, docking techniques, heaving-to, drogue use, sea anchor use, MOB drills.... Might as well take full advantage of the conditions when you have them.

You could arrange something similar on a more informal basis.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Thank you so much. My understanding is that the sea anchor in particular is about waves, not wind.

The purpose of all drag devices is to prevent a broach, knockdown, pitchpole or other disaster threatened by a really bad sea state, or to slow down drift (in case of a sea anchor). They have nothing to do at all with wind, which is not a threat by itself as long as you don't have too much sail up.

Drag devices also have nothing to do with comfort, unless we're talking about the psychological comfort which comes from knowing you might not die after all. A sea anchor, in particular, creates a horrendous motion if you lie to it without being hove-to. A sea anchor used while being hove to does not provide any additional comfort -- it simply slows down your drift. Likewise a drogue is used while sailing downwind to prevent you from accelerating out of control down the face of really large waves, in order to prevent a broach or pitchpole. It does not improve motion comfort, although of course it can greatly reduce stress of a helmsman who is afraid of losing control of the boat, and can even allow the helmsman to get some rest if the boat speed is brought down to where the autopilot can cope.

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Of course you could get more efficiently underway once the wind died down, but (forgive me -- each boat does handle these things differently) -- my boat is tender in waves, and the reports seem to indicate that the sea anchor helps handle that.

Not at all. A sea anchor might help stabilize a hove-to position, and it will slow down the rate of drift if you are afraid of drifting off your course or, especially, onto a lee shore. It will keep your head to the wind so that you don't get put beam-on to the seas, reducing the risk of a knock-down. But if you lie to a sea anchor without being hove to, you will be tossed horrendously by the waves. It will not do anything for motion comfort, on the contrary, motion comfort will be vastly better if you are sailing, preferably downwind.

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

I would be willing to wait more comfortably before getting underway and let the seas as well as the wind settle down. But what you say matches with what I've read from a variety of sources, that the sea anchor is much harder to retrieve while the waves are still up.

That's one of the things that makes all of this a tough call.

I don't think drogues are all that hard to retrieve. A sea anchor could be an entirely different story.

thanks.

Try it and report back to us here about your experience (with photos, please!). If an hour or two of hard labor (see Erstarzinger's post above) is "not all that hard to retrieve", then you're right. I personally would dread it, especially if single-handed or exhausted after fighting a big storm. It's also a risky and potentially dangerous procedure, like any work on deck in bad sea conditions, plus it is easy to get a wrap around keel (see Wotname's post above) or stern gear, which can be potentially disastrous in rough weather.

Both drogue and sea anchor will be much easier and much less dangerous to recover when the sea is calm. But it takes a long time for the sea to calm down after a big storm (the sea takes a lot of energy and hence a long time, usually days, to get really high, and likewise, a long time to settle down - to dissipate that stored energy) - who would wait and "waste a good wind" (as was said above)? So if you're using it for real and not just for practice, you will generally have to recover it when the sea is still pretty high, or else cut it away. Hint: you will want to heave to, to take some of the strain off a drogue, before attempting to recover.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Evans,
Raku just asked about trip lines.
.

I don't know much about trip lines on drogues. For a trip line to work you essentially have to motor around to the back of the drogue and pick it up, and I prefer not to be motoring around with all that line in the water and also not to be motoring around when the waves are still the size they are when we want to get going again (say +5m).

They are simply not necessary on the single element drogues and I have not tried them there.

They 'might' be useful on a series drogue, which can be more difficult to get in (higher load and some risk of tearing cones). I have discussed them with some other people who have tried them on series drogues and my impression was I would rather just be careful with the winching. So, I again don't have first hand experience there.

I have used trip lines on para anchors in order to collapse the chute and not be trying to pull up tons of water. I have tended to get as much rode up as possible and then get the trip line with a boat hook from the bow and collapse the chute. That's not a very pleasant job in 5m waves but does work. The Pardey's believe the trip line (on a para anchor) is more hassle than its worth and collapse the chute by pulling on one of the shroud lines. They use smallish chutes and it works terrific on those, but we have also used it to recover a 24' dia (I think) chute when practicing on Dashews 80' motor boat and it also worked there but I was pretty clam when we were doing this practice and I almost pulled into the sea just by a small swell and I am not so confident it would really work in a big sea state with that size chute.

I have seen people write about a trip line system where the trip line is lead up the rode to the bow and when you want to recover you essentially cast off the main rode and pull on the trip line and you pull the chute in backwards and don't have to go motoring to it. It sounds good until you think about the rode twisting, and the couple people we know who have tried it have had serious tangles. So, I have not tried that first hand either.

Net net I think you probably should follow the manufacturers directions for the gear you have. Our drogues (we have three of them) all say no trip line and that supports my own thinking. Our para-anchor says do use a trip line and I do but am about 50/50 whether it is better or worse than pulling a shroud line.

I believe I am using the best possible recovery system (just straight winching) for our single and dual element drogues. I am am not so happy with our series drogue and para-anchor recovery's and am completely open to other suggestions on how to do it better.

One of the problems with this whole field is that most people, even 'the experts' have such limited experience actually doing it 'in anger' (eg in real storm force sea states). I believe the pardey's have only set their para-anchor twice 'in anger' (eg in real storm force winds on their own boat). I know when they got into storm force near us off the west coast of Chile they choose to fore reach rather than set the para-anchor.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

One of the problems with this whole field is that most people, even 'the experts' have such limited experience actually doing it 'in anger' (eg in real storm force sea states).
.

Yep.

....

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The purpose of all drag devices is to prevent a broach, knockdown, pitchpole or other disaster threatened by a really bad sea state, or to slow down drift (in case of a sea anchor). They have nothing to do at all with wind, which is not a threat by itself as long as you don't have too much sail up.

Drag devices also have nothing to do with comfort, unless we're talking about the psychological comfort which comes from knowing you might not die after all. A sea anchor, in particular, creates a horrendous motion if you lie to it without being hove-to. A sea anchor used while being hove to does not provide any additional comfort -- it simply slows down your drift. Likewise a drogue is used while sailing downwind to prevent you from accelerating out of control down the face of really large waves, in order to prevent a broach or pitchpole. It does not improve motion comfort, although of course it can greatly reduce stress of a helmsman who is afraid of losing control of the boat, and can even allow the helmsman to get some rest if the boat speed is brought down to where the autopilot can cope.




Not at all. A sea anchor might help stabilize a hove-to position, and it will slow down the rate of drift if you are afraid of drifting off your course or, especially, onto a lee shore. It will keep your head to the wind so that you don't get put beam-on to the seas, reducing the risk of a knock-down. But if you lie to a sea anchor without being hove to, you will be tossed horrendously by the waves. It will not do anything for motion comfort, on the contrary, motion comfort will be vastly better if you are sailing, preferably downwind.




Try it and report back to us here about your experience (with photos, please!). If an hour or two of hard labor (see Erstarzinger's post above) is "not all that hard to retrieve", then you're right. I personally would dread it, especially if single-handed or exhausted after fighting a big storm. It's also a risky and potentially dangerous procedure, like any work on deck in bad sea conditions, plus it is easy to get a wrap around keel (see Wotname's post above) or stern gear, which can be potentially disastrous in rough weather.

Both drogue and sea anchor will be much easier and much less dangerous to recover when the sea is calm. But it takes a long time for the sea to calm down after a big storm (the sea takes a lot of energy and hence a long time, usually days, to get really high, and likewise, a long time to settle down - to dissipate that stored energy) - who would wait and "waste a good wind" (as was said above)? So if you're using it for real and not just for practice, you will generally have to recover it when the sea is still pretty high, or else cut it away. Hint: you will want to heave to, to take some of the strain off a drogue, before attempting to recover.

Well, let's be clear about one thing. I can't say what anyone else would do, but if *I* choose to use one of these things, I won't be trying to pull it in the minute the weather eases off slightly. I wil let things settle down. From *everything* I have read, you are absolutely right that it isn't about the winds -- it's about the water. The wind you deal with by controlling (or completely removing) your sails. The water you can't control; you can only control how your boat responds to it.

But I have seen so many reports on line and in books (including both Hinz and Pardey) that a sea anchor can greatly increase comfort in a storm -- and they treat this as a serious issue, that working through a severe storm can inflict severe fatigue on a crew (not to mention the problem of disabling sea sickness) that I remain open on that one.

Standard disclaimer applies: this does not mean I did not listen to the poster, just that it's part of a much bigger picture of information I'm gathering, and that I haven't actually *tried* any of it yet.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Therapy

Yep.

....

As long as we all read it an assimilate it with that in mind -- no problem.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

But I have seen so many reports on line and in books (including both Hinz and Pardey) that a sea anchor can greatly increase comfort in a storm -- and they treat this as a serious issue, that working through a severe storm can inflict severe fatigue on a crew (not to mention the problem of disabling sea sickness) that I remain open on that one.

Standard disclaimer applies: this does not mean I did not listen to the poster, just that it's part of a much bigger picture of information I'm gathering, and that I haven't actually *tried* any of it yet.

Besides listening to the posters, you should also read the books more carefully. The Pardeys' book in particular is an extremely valuable resource and worth learning by heart. I think if you look back at it, you will see that they make no such claims for sea anchors at all.

In fact, on page 136, they say specifically:

"The comfort difference between lying ahull and heaving-to is immense, as was described in Part 1. Adding a para-anchor to keep the boat hove-to in storm winds does not seem to increase physical comfort over riding hove-to to just a storm trysail . . . "

The whole point of the 239 pages of this book is a passionate argument for heaving-to as a superior storm tactic. For the Pardeys, a sea anchor is a mere accessory to heaving-to -- a way to stabilize the boat's angle to the seas while hove to, to keep the boat from "sailing out of its slick", or to reduce the rate of drift. On page 115, they say you don't need a sea anchor at all if your boat heaves to stably. They never write about lying to a sea anchor without being hove to.

The comfort and safety, as they say, comes from heaving-to. They claim almost magical properties for the "slick" which a hove-to boat's leeway produces.

And I think most experienced sailors will tell you the same thing about heaving-to. In rough conditions, heaving-to is like God pressed the "pause" button. And it's useful in all conditions from calms to hurricanes. I've never used it as a storm tactic, because I've never been in that kind of storm -- I've never rounded Cape Horn or sailed the Southern Ocean -- but it is magic for taking a break or giving relief to seasick passengers in choppy weather.

The Pardeys also argue against that tactic which 99% of sailors (including me) do use in storms -- running off. They make a good case that after a certain point, running off becomes really dangerous. Besides that, they argue, by running off, you prolong the period of time you are with the storm. They recommend heaving-to and letting the storm pass by -- like that you can usually get off in 24 hours or less, they say, unless you're in high latitudes.

The thing is that "that certain point" is something which few sailors ever experience, and no coastal sailors. The Pardeys write about sailing (!) in 90 knot winds, sailing through the eyes of hurricanes, spending four days in the high latitudes lying hove-to to a para-anchor -- Mt. Everest conditions, which don't translate that much to the Stone Mountain conditions coastal sailors encounter. So running off works perfectly well for most of us.

Another excellent book on these things is Adlard Coles' Heavy Weather Sailing, the classic of the genre. A little out of date but still a must read. I keep both of them somewhere near my bunk.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Besides listening to the posters, you should also read the books more carefully. The Pardeys' book in particular is an extremely valuable resource and worth learning by heart. I think if you look back at it, you will see that they make no such claims for sea anchors at all.

In fact, on page 136, they say specifically:

"The comfort difference between lying ahull and heaving-to is immense, as was described in Part 1. Adding a para-anchor to keep the boat hove-to in storm winds does not seem to increase physical comfort over riding hove-to to just a storm trysail . . . "

The whole point of the 239 pages of this book is a passionate argument for heaving-to as a superior storm tactic. For the Pardeys, a sea anchor is a mere accessory to heaving-to -- a way to stabilize the boat's angle to the seas while hove to, to keep the boat from "sailing out of its slick", or to reduce the rate of drift. On page 115, they say you don't need a sea anchor at all if your boat heaves to stably. They never write about lying to a sea anchor without being hove to.

The comfort and safety, as they say, comes from heaving-to. They claim almost magical properties for the "slick" which a hove-to boat's leeway produces.

And I think most experienced sailors will tell you the same thing about heaving-to. In rough conditions, heaving-to is like God pressed the "pause" button. And it's useful in all conditions from calms to hurricanes. I've never used it as a storm tactic, because I've never been in that kind of storm -- I've never rounded Cape Horn or sailed the Southern Ocean -- but it is magic for taking a break or giving relief to seasick passengers in choppy weather.

The Pardeys also argue against that tactic which 99% of sailors (including me) do use in storms -- running off. They make a good case that after a certain point, running off becomes really dangerous. Besides that, they argue, by running off, you prolong the period of time you are with the storm. They recommend heaving-to and letting the storm pass by -- like that you can usually get off in 24 hours or less, they say, unless you're in high latitudes.

The thing is that "that certain point" is something which few sailors ever experience, and no coastal sailors. The Pardeys write about sailing (!) in 90 knot winds, sailing through the eyes of hurricanes, spending four days in the high latitudes lying hove-to to a para-anchor -- Mt. Everest conditions, which don't translate that much to the Stone Mountain conditions coastal sailors encounter. So running off works perfectly well for most of us.

Another excellent book on these things is Adlard Coles' Heavy Weather Sailing, the classic of the genre. A little out of date but still a must read. I keep both of them somewhere near my bunk.

""The comfort difference between lying ahull and heaving-to is immense, as was described in Part 1. Adding a para-anchor to keep the boat hove-to in storm winds does not seem to increase physical comfort over riding hove-to to just a storm trysail . . . "
"

I suggest YOU read with broader comprehension. Being hove to with a slick increases comfort. Not being hove to, into the waves either sailing or with a sea anchor, will be rougher. If the sea anchor helps you stay hove to with a slick, *clearly* the Pardeys realize they are more comfortable, as they mention in other parts of the book. Numerous other people have said the same thing.

I suspect that you have not immersed yourself in this the way I have. I've had good reason to; you have not.

And, the Pardeys talk a whole lot about other things besides being in the extreme conditions you describe.

I have appreciated your feedback, but now I think you and I have gone as far as we can on this topic. That's not to say your posts haven't been useful, but you really did miss some things there in the Pardey book.

[DumnMad]

Thanks Dockhead. Another clear explanation. I don't have the youth or experience to use a parachute but I read up before I bought the boat & made my storm tactic move early by choosing one that will hove-to easily.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

""The comfort difference between lying ahull and heaving-to is immense, as was described in Part 1. Adding a para-anchor to keep the boat hove-to in storm winds does not seem to increase physical comfort over riding hove-to to just a storm trysail . . . "
"

I suggest YOU read with broader comprehension. Being hove to with a slick increases comfort. Not being hove to, into the waves either sailing or with a sea anchor, will be rougher. If the sea anchor helps you stay hove to with a slick, *clearly* the Pardeys realize they are more comfortable, as they mention in other parts of the book. Numerous other people have said the same thing.

[Scratching my head]. That's exactly what I was saying. That a sea anchor is not the source of any motion comfort, rather heaving to is.

But yes - I think there's now plenty of good information laid out in this thread, for any capable of absorbing it. I'm particularly grateful to Erstarzinger for graciously sharing real high latitude extreme conditions experience -- we are all babies in comparison. I'm moving on to something else.