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Old 18-10-2015, 08:35   #31
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Re: Don't Rely on Mast-Top Anchor Lights -- Bitter Experience

Here's the damage:

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So the rail is crushed over a section of about 30cm. One stanchion is bent and one stanchion socket is damaged. The rail is set on a short bulwark, which is cracked. The very top of the outside of the hull (the top of the bulwark, only from the outside) is cracked where it meets the rail.

So I am guessing that a section of the rail comes off, and the bulwark gets repaired. This is probably the hull-deck joint, so God knows what else might be involved there. But I think the hull is ok, and this damage is local. I guess we will know that for sure only when the rail comes off.

I would be interested to know what our experts think about this.
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Old 18-10-2015, 08:42   #32
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Re: Don't Rely on Mast-Top Anchor Lights -- Bitter Experience

Re: #25 (Dockhead)

I use a Coleman lantern, very similar to the one you show. My approach is simple: Use the masthead light cos it makes you compliant. Then forget about about it, and focus on safety. My Coleman is battery powered (rechargeable "D" cells) and run up on the forestay to just above head-height, say 8 feet. If there is any traffic I leave the deck light on. There is no mistaking the illuminated foredeck and house for anything else. A curtain under the translucent forehatch lets us sleep.

An insistence that other skippers must be as competent as yourself is absolutely bound to lead to trouble. Practice "defensive boating". The men who make a living on the water have enuff to worry about without having to pay attention to Sunday-sailors, so I stay WELL out of their way, even when by the strict application of "the rules", they are privileged. As someone else said, "do something silly" to call attention to yourself. Whether it's a 12K ton ferry coming out of Active Pass or a towboat with three log booms strung out for half a mile behind him, I like to do two tight 360s in succession, then skive off for half a mile with my tail between my legs, away from the commercial traffic, then turn to face him and lie dead in the water till I'm sure we've understood each other.

Sailing at night in these waters I like to indicate, when necessary, that I'm a sailing vessel by the simple expedient of shining a torch onto the mainsail.

Around here, many anchorages have cans laid out permanently. I have never tangled with, or been interfered with, by fishing gear, but twice I've picked up a sunken, abandoned can. Such things are foreseeable, so it only makes common sense to have sufficient hoisting capacity, and sufficient cutting capacity, to deal with it, even if you only have the problem once in a decade.

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Old 18-10-2015, 08:54   #33
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Re: Don't Rely on Mast-Top Anchor Lights -- Bitter Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
. . . The men who make a living on the water have enuff to worry about without having to pay attention to Sunday-sailors, so I stay WELL out of their way, even when by the strict application of "the rules", they are privileged. . . .
Defensive boating, like defensive anything, is a good idea. But I thought this phrase was strange -- so because they "make their living on the water", they shouldn't have to keep watch and avoid running us down at anchor?


That being said -- how many people here knew that the COLREGS require you even at anchor to take reasonable actions to avoid a collision, if a vessel underway fails to see you?

"A lookout on a vessel at anchor is required, with the level of effort depending upon the location of the anchorage, depth of water, type of ground tackle, wind, currents, waves, and so forth. The lookout should determine whether the anchor is dragging and should warn other vessels of the anchored vessel's presence."

Rule5.html

Other sources say you have to start your engine and try to maneuver, even when you are at anchor, if it's reasonably possible, and another vessel fails to see you.

How many of us thought that if you are at anchor, and are displaying the rights lights and day shapes, you can go below, drink, watch a movie, sleep, and not worry about traffic? The COLREGS don't work that way. It is a general principle that, with very few exceptions, everyone shares at least some part of the responsibility, in case a collision occurs.
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Old 18-10-2015, 08:58   #34
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Col Regs state MINIMUM

The all around mast-head light is the MINIMUM (for most pleasure craft).

There is nothing saying you can't display more than the MINIMUM.

For the sake of a few extra garden solar lights at 3 bucks each (any extra does not have to meet col regs 2 nm performance requirements). These may only run until about 2 am, but most are done boating by then.

But if you are not displaying the MINIMUM prescribed, you will most certainly be found at fault (at least a percentage) if you are involved in a collision.

Anyone worth there salt, should be watching the "stars". If the "stars" are moving (other than shooting stars which are very apparent) in relation to your vessel, they are most likely not stars at all.

Anyone who runs into a boat, displaying the Col Regs prescribed MINIMUM, is not keeping "Proper Watch", as required by the same regulations.
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Old 18-10-2015, 09:07   #35
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Re: Don't Rely on Mast-Top Anchor Lights -- Bitter Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
Re: #25 (Dockhead)

I use a Coleman lantern, very similar to the one you show. My approach is simple: Use the masthead light cos it makes you compliant. Then forget about about it, and focus on safety. My Coleman is battery powered (rechargeable "D" cells) and run up on the forestay to just above head-height, say 8 feet. If there is any traffic I leave the deck light on. There is no mistaking the illuminated foredeck and house for anything else. A curtain under the translucent forehatch lets us sleep.

An insistence that other skippers must be as competent as yourself is absolutely bound to lead to trouble. Practice "defensive boating". The men who make a living on the water have enuff to worry about without having to pay attention to Sunday-sailors, so I stay WELL out of their way, even when by the strict application of "the rules", they are privileged. As someone else said, "do something silly" to call attention to yourself. Whether it's a 12K ton ferry coming out of Active Pass or a towboat with three log booms strung out for half a mile behind him, I like to do two tight 360s in succession, then skive off for half a mile with my tail between my legs, away from the commercial traffic, then turn to face him and lie dead in the water till I'm sure we've understood each other.

Sailing at night in these waters I like to indicate, when necessary, that I'm a sailing vessel by the simple expedient of shining a torch onto the mainsail.

Around here, many anchorages have cans laid out permanently. I have never tangled with, or been interfered with, by fishing gear, but twice I've picked up a sunken, abandoned can. Such things are foreseeable, so it only makes common sense to have sufficient hoisting capacity, and sufficient cutting capacity, to deal with it, even if you only have the problem once in a decade.

TrentePieds
I have the same Coleman as you and sleep like a log. On low the led can be seen for miles.
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Old 18-10-2015, 09:16   #36
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Re: Don't Rely on Mast-Top Anchor Lights -- Bitter Experience

Dock, sorry to hear about your incident. Must have been a terrible night for you. Glad no-one was injured and you handled it all very well.

also sorry to tell you I showed your pics to Beth (who has seen and studied ALOT of insurance claims) and she thinks that is easily more than $10k to repair correctly, because you may have to remove interior to get at it. I hope she's wrong, but be prepared.

We always hung a light from our boom end when anchored (12vt plug in the cockpit). When the cheap solar led garden lights came out I also started putting two of those on port and starboard stanchions (put pvc pipe on the two stanchions to act as 'sockets' for the light spikes) - cost nothing at all and very good illumination.
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Old 18-10-2015, 09:20   #37
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Re: Don't Rely on Mast-Top Anchor Lights -- Bitter Experience

Let me think.....a commercial fisherman keeping a proper watch, while trolling all night....Nope....never counted on that.

If they are around my anchorage, I am lit up like a Xmas tree.
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Old 18-10-2015, 09:25   #38
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Re: Don't Rely on Mast-Top Anchor Lights -- Bitter Experience

What a shame about the damage to your boat - thankfully Moody's are built the way they are. Another boat may have had another outcome.

Most of my boating experience is in crowded NE US waters. Many times we would be in a harbor with 100 boats. Dinghy-ing back from a restaurant I would have trouble finding my own boat at twilight or after dark. I put a 6" piece of reflective tape just at the boarding gate on each side of the boat and one on the stern. In daylight it blended in to the basic color of the boat and wasn't at all noticeable. At night even without a flashlight I was able to spot it from a good distance.

Now in the Pacific Northwest it's much less crowded but I ran two lines of solar rope LEDs along the toe rail mostly to help me see when I'm boarding and to discourage "visitors". I think they cost me US$6 each and I can see them from
the end of the dock.
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Old 18-10-2015, 09:32   #39
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Re: Don't Rely on Mast-Top Anchor Lights -- Bitter Experience

Yeah, there have been some threads regarding mast top anchor lites in the past. They are very difficult to see. A good light on the boom reflecting off the boat is much better.
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Old 18-10-2015, 09:40   #40
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Re: Don't Rely on Mast-Top Anchor Lights -- Bitter Experience

I'm sorry to hear of all of this Dockhead and you had right of way too , sorry couldn't resist.

There's been way too many mishaps down this way for me to rely on a mast head light. Mine is pretty bright too, but I wasted no time in putting an additional LED all round on my Stern. I also have a portable LED that's on an extension lead I can just plug into a 12v from inside and hang it anywhere on the boat. I did all of this because our local authority mag had a reported incident the year I got her of a fishing trawler running into a vessel at anchor and the vessel at anchor received some criticism for not being lit up enough.

Not going along with an insurance fraud, very wise , if the fisherman didn't uphold his part of the deal and you would be lumped with the lot, with no insurance at all.
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Old 18-10-2015, 09:44   #41
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Re: Don't Rely on Mast-Top Anchor Lights -- Bitter Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Here's the damage:

Attachment 111169

Attachment 111170

Attachment 111171

Attachment 111172

Attachment 111173


So the rail is crushed over a section of about 30cm. One stanchion is bent and one stanchion socket is damaged. The rail is set on a short bulwark, which is cracked. The very top of the outside of the hull (the top of the bulwark, only from the outside) is cracked where it meets the rail.

So I am guessing that a section of the rail comes off, and the bulwark gets repaired. This is probably the hull-deck joint, so God knows what else might be involved there. But I think the hull is ok, and this damage is local. I guess we will know that for sure only when the rail comes off.

I would be interested to know what our experts think about this.
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Old 18-10-2015, 10:02   #42
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Re: Col Regs state MINIMUM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
The all around mast-head light is the MINIMUM (for most pleasure craft).
Ah, the Colregs does not require a anchor light at the top of a sailboats mast.

(a) A vessel at anchor shall exhibit where it can best be seen:
(i) in the fore part, an all-round white light or one ball;
(ii) at or near the stern and at a lower level that the light prescribed in paragraph (i), an all-round white light.
(b) A vessel of less than 50 m in length may exhibit an all-round white light where it can best be seen instead of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule.


As Dockhead has well proven, a Mast head light is not where it can best be seen.


Of course you say, but it says an all round light. Yes it does, so lets look at Annex I, which describes anchor lights in far more detail.



Annex I lists the following for anchor lights.


(b) All-round lights shall be so located as not to
be obscured by masts, topmasts or structures within
angular sectors of more than 6 degrees, except anchor
lights, which need not be placed at an
impracticable height above the hull.



This is interesting as it implies that an anchor light could be obscured by more then 6 degrees. However, On my boat the mast obscures the anchor light for about 4 degrees of arc, based on sightings with a bearing compass, so it meets the requirements of an anchor light in either case.

So there isn't a requirement that the anchor light be a mast head light. Oh it does mention masthead. But if you note in the colregs it says masthead for power boats too. What they are talking about is the light mast to raise the anchor light above the gunnels.

I've had the coasties come by at night and not once have they complained about my home made spice jar anchor light on the backstay. It is FAR brighter that a anchor light 50-70 feet above the water that leaves the deck unlit.
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Old 18-10-2015, 10:08   #43
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Re: Don't Rely on Mast-Top Anchor Lights -- Bitter Experience

An inexpensive way to light up your boat on deck at night is to purchase some of those solar-powered lawn lights and affix them to your stanchions. I used one on each side secured with velcro. It puts light down where the power boaters would see it.
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Old 18-10-2015, 10:13   #44
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Re: Don't Rely on Mast-Top Anchor Lights -- Bitter Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Dock, sorry to hear about your incident. Must have been a terrible night for you. Glad no-one was injured and you handled it all very well.

also sorry to tell you I showed your pics to Beth (who has seen and studied ALOT of insurance claims) and she thinks that is easily more than $10k to repair correctly, because you may have to remove interior to get at it. I hope she's wrong, but be prepared.

We always hung a light from our boom end when anchored (12vt plug in the cockpit). When the cheap solar led garden lights came out I also started putting two of those on port and starboard stanchions (put pvc pipe on the two stanchions to act as 'sockets' for the light spikes) - cost nothing at all and very good illumination.
Thanks. I hope it won't cost $10k, although 6 000 pounds -- that's sort of my present WAG at the bill.

I have good insurance (Pantaenius), and I think I even get a free pass on my no claims discount (I've never ever submitted an insurance claim in 40 years of boating), but the fisherman who is first in line to pay was only trying to help, and I would hate for it to turn into a giant legal hassle for him at the hands of my insurance company. [NOTE, by the way, that the guy who smashed into me was NOT the fisherman who didn't see me. The guy who collided with me was a different guy, in a different, boat, who came by to see if he could help, when he saw my deck lights on and us struggling on deck to free the first fisherman's gear.]

I don't think access will be a big issue (thank God no liner). The inside of the hull and underside of the rail is accessible in this spot without removing any furniture, because there are access panels in the wet locker, and the other part is accessible from behind the main electrical panel.

I am counting my lucky stars that I was in this overbuilt, tank-like boat, and not something else, like one of my earlier boats. The boat might otherwise be at the bottom of the Solent right now.
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Old 18-10-2015, 10:20   #45
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Re: Don't Rely on Mast-Top Anchor Lights -- Bitter Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
I'm sorry to hear of all of this Dockhead and you had right of way too , sorry couldn't resist.

There's been way too many mishaps down this way for me to rely on a mast head light. Mine is pretty bright too, but I wasted no time in putting an additional LED all round on my Stern. I also have a portable LED that's on an extension lead I can just plug into a 12v from inside and hang it anywhere on the boat. I did all of this because our local authority mag had a reported incident the year I got her of a fishing trawler running into a vessel at anchor and the vessel at anchor received some criticism for not being lit up enough.

Not going along with an insurance fraud, very wise , if the fisherman didn't uphold his part of the deal and you would be lumped with the lot, with no insurance at all.
Concerning right of way -- see post #35 above. It seems that even I didn't realize the extent to which there is NO right of way, even in this situation

Not being lit up enough, not keeping an anchor watch, and even not taking some other action, would be questions which would have a legal basis, in case it goes that far. Nobody is completely innocent in any collision, even when you're at anchor

I am definitely going to light the boat differently after this.


By the way -- a bit of drift off this specific point, but there was another factor in the accident --

ROPE RODE. I had 100 meters of it out, and in the constant currents of the tidal Solent, it has NO catenary. I guess it is about 1000x times more likely for someone to get tangled up in, than chain. Besides that, it is likely to get cut if someone runs into it, setting you adrift. Suddenly I really stopped liking rope rode.

Although the Fortress performed amazingly well (and it reset itself twice when the tide changed), I don't think I'm going to be spending a single night more lying to a rope rode, unless it's completely unavoidable. It's going back to kedge only.
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