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Old 16-07-2015, 10:32   #91
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Re: Don't anchor in the channel and this won't happen.

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. Like you say, it's easy to see a big boat coming from far away.
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Easy to see in good weather. Like in the video.
I installed an AIS on my sailboat as soon as I could get one in Florida, 2005 I think it was. Great piece of equipment.
Sometimes one is forced to come close to a big ship. The inlets to Miami and Fort Lauderdale for instance, lots of big ship traffic here. It could happen, not very likely, but it has happened in the past that a ship gets steering failure, and or loose control of the power plant. (Check the you tube videos of ships running into things, including buildings) Another reason to stay far away from them.
Some ships are flagged out with questionable maintenance and officers with fake
Licenses, while others are First Class operations. Either way, stay well clear
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Old 16-07-2015, 10:36   #92
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Re: Don't anchor in the channel and this won't happen.

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.
The ship only carried 3 bridge officers, Captain, mate and 2nd mate.
Aye, that means the Captain had to stand watch like another sub-human..The Horror.)
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Old 16-07-2015, 10:50   #93
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Re: Don't anchor in the channel and this won't happen.

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Aye, that means the Captain had to stand watch like another sub-human..The Horror.)
Nothing that horrible, the watches were 6 and 6, which is horrible, just not for the captain and the cook.

I did that for 93 days and when I got off I never set foot on a cargo ship again, that was 17 years ago.

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Old 16-07-2015, 10:55   #94
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Re: Don't anchor in the channel and this won't happen.

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It could happen, not very likely, but it has happened in the past that a ship gets steering failure, and or loose control of the power plant. (Check the you tube videos of ships running into things, including buildings)
Like this? Also a great example of the need to sometimes choose the lessor of multiple evils when it comes to piloting large vessels:

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Old 16-07-2015, 11:07   #95
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Re: Don't anchor in the channel and this won't happen.

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Originally Posted by CSY Man View Post
Easy to see in good weather. Like in the video.
I installed an AIS on my sailboat as soon as I could get one in Florida, 2005 I think it was. Great piece of equipment.
Sometimes one is forced to come close to a big ship. The inlets to Miami and Fort Lauderdale for instance, lots of big ship traffic here. It could happen, not very likely, but it has happened in the past that a ship gets steering failure, and or loose control of the power plant. (Check the you tube videos of ships running into things, including buildings) Another reason to stay far away from them.
Some ships are flagged out with questionable maintenance and officers with fake
Licenses, while others are First Class operations. Either way, stay well clear
Agree good weather is required but in 15 years cruising FL and the Caribbean I never saw fog or anything other than a heavy rain that impeded viz. Even in heavy rain I never got too close to a ship. Night also no problem. In fact I usually noticed lights on a ship at night sooner than I would have seen the little white smudge on the horizon in daytime.

Also 100% agree on variation in crew competency. A couple of times in the islands I had to wonder if some of the local ships were playing chicken with me.

Yes AIS is on my list. Again, not trying to minimize the benefit. Just saying I did a fair bit of cruising back in the old days before AIS and never had even a close call, except as noted going in and out of ports.
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Old 16-07-2015, 11:17   #96
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Re: Don't anchor in the channel and this won't happen.

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The ship was identified by one of the real experts as a bulk carrier. I looked up the specs and the vessel is about 600' long, 100' beam. Maybe one of the real experts could comment on the distance required to alter course to give the +/- 300' necessary for the ship to pass on the near side of the boat but by my non expert guess several ship lengths, at least 2000-3000'.
It's a tanker, not a bulker. And despite the fact that you're not an expert, you insist on making up junk statements about the manoeuvrability of the ship. FYI, your non-expert guess is closer to the advance of a 90 turn at full speed with full rudder
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At the start of the video the ship appears to be about 1000' from the boat so certainly their course was set well before the video began.
Sure, if the tanker was going 12 kts, which is reasonable in the circumstances, I'd agree it's about 1000'.

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Also at the start of the video anyone would agree that that there is no way the ship could alter course to pass on the near side of the boat, regardless of the position of the rescuer.
I don't believe anyone suggested otherwise - but for the life of me I can't figure out the relevance of this point.

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By your own estimate at this point there was on the order of half mile, call it 2000' between the rescuer and the other boat so at least as much room on the near side for the ship to pass as there is on the far side between the boat and buoy, if the ship could have altered course in time.

If you back up in time to a point where the ship could have altered course the gap between the rescuer and the other boat would have been even greater so if they had wanted, the ship would have had even more room to pass on the near side of the disabled boat.
The rescuer wasn't 2000' on the tanker's beam - he was on the tanker's bow. The angle between the stranded boat and the rescuer, from the perspective of the tanker, would have stayed essentially the same throughout the engagement. Reminding you, this is a narrow channel, the rescuer essentially blocked the entire sector that would have been available for the tanker to use. The only other option, going hard left, and leaving both small vessels to stbd would be discounted for two reasons: 1) colregs frowns on this (17 (c) A power-driven vessel which takes action in a crossing situation in accordance with subparagraph (a)(ii) of this Rule to avoid collision with another power-driven vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, not alter course to port for a vessel on her own port side.); and
2) he likely wouldn't have room to make large port then starboard turns without going aground outside the opposite side of the channel.

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Further, it is clear from the video and I'm sure also to the crew on the ship that the rescuer was under way, under control and aware of the situation and could have steered away to give the ship room to maneuver in any direction.
You got that from watching a video of the give way vessel (the "rescuer") not giving way, and closing on a steady bearing to a range of about 50-100'?!?!?
Clearly you won't be swayed by logic or experience. Carry on believing what you want to believe.
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Old 16-07-2015, 11:39   #97
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Re: Don't anchor in the channel and this won't happen.

Quote:
. Nothing that horrible, the watches were 6 and 6, which is horrible, just not for the captain and the cook.
Aye the 6/6.
We called them monkey watches, as opposed to the 4/8.
I did quite a few 6/6 when cleaning tanks, dirty job especially with smelly fish oil and you are in the tank for 6 hours...
Never got a good nights sleep doing the 6/6, but I was young and stupid.

Sometimes, when going to a new port the ship arranged to have shore side crews clean the tanks for a fixed price, say $30,000, or the Captain offered us to do the same job and split the money between up. Even the cook was down there in hell cleaning tanks for some quick cash.
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Old 16-07-2015, 11:47   #98
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Re: Don't anchor in the channel and this won't happen.

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
While I do appreciate you designating me an expert I cannot accept that honor in this particular field. However in this situation I think even rough approximations will show with a fair degree of accuracy that the actions of the rescuer did not force the ship to pass on the far side of the other boat.

The ship was identified by one of the real experts as a bulk carrier. I looked up the specs and the vessel is about 600' long, 100' beam. Maybe one of the real experts could comment on the distance required to alter course to give the +/- 300' necessary for the ship to pass on the near side of the boat but by my non expert guess several ship lengths, at least 2000-3000'

At the start of the video the ship appears to be about 1000' from the boat so certainly their course was set well before the video began. Also at the start of the video anyone would agree that that there is no way the ship could alter course to pass on the near side of the boat, regardless of the position of the rescuer.

By your own estimate at this point there was on the order of half mile, call it 2000' between the rescuer and the other boat so at least as much room on the near side for the ship to pass as there is on the far side between the boat and buoy, if the ship could have altered course in time.

If you back up in time to a point where the ship could have altered course the gap between the rescuer and the other boat would have been even greater so if they had wanted, the ship would have had even more room to pass on the near side of the disabled boat.

Further, it is clear from the video and I'm sure also to the crew on the ship that the rescuer was under way, under control and aware of the situation and could have steered away to give the ship room to maneuver in any direction. No I am not a mind reader but I think it a very logical conclusion to draw.

Bottom line, I see no hard evidence that the actions of the rescue boat forced the ship to pass between the other boat and the buoy.
Oh, I'm not a tanker expert, my experience lies with government and passenger vessels, in fact, I'm not even a sailor any more, my area of expertise is regulatory and wouldn't be of much interest to CF members.

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Old 16-07-2015, 11:58   #99
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Re: Don't anchor in the channel and this won't happen.

Here is another one that went wrong:
Do pay attention when you are close to a big boat.

http://youtu.be/3-RIMcpmzuM
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Old 16-07-2015, 12:15   #100
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Re: Don't anchor in the channel and this won't happen.

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
Clearly you won't be swayed by logic or experience. Carry on believing what you want to believe.
40 years boating. Owned boats from 65' ketch to 32' racer cruisers, 18' to 36' power boats, deliveries on power up to 90', around 25,000 miles at sea. Guess that doesn't count for experience.

Logic, I'm an engineer by training and logic is the bottom line.


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And despite the fact that you're not an expert, you insist on making up junk statements about the manoeuvrability of the ship.
Please elaborate on what junk statement I made. Are you saying that at the start of the video the ship could have altered course to pass on the near side of the boat?

Since you claim all I say is wrong please inform me as to how many feet it would take that ship to alter course to pass on this side of the boat.



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It's a tanker, not a bulker.
I don't drive one but I have shipped chemicals on them for 20 years and whether they carry crude oil or 2000 MT of acetone I hear them referred to as bulk or liquid bulk carriers. Not that this has anything at all to do with the point in question.


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I don't believe anyone suggested otherwise - but for the life of me I can't figure out the relevance of this point.

The relevance is you claim the rescue boat forced the ship to pass between the other boat and the buoy. So at what point was that action forced? Certainly not at the beginning of the video when the ship's course was committed.

So when?

Again you pick on irrelevant points. I never said the rescue was on the beam I said, based on your own statement that there was a gap of +/- 2000' between the boats. Even allowing for the angle on the bow there is still more than enough room for the ship to pass between the two smaller boats.

And as I said, if you go back in time the distance between the two small boats was even greater so the ship would have even more room to pass between them.

So at what point did the rescue boat forced the ship to pass on the far side?


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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
The angle between the stranded boat and the rescuer, from the perspective of the tanker, would have stayed essentially the same throughout the engagement.
Of course the relative bearing could stay the same but the distance and gap between the boats would not. One would assume that whoever was at the helm of the ship could discern a change in the distance off.

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Reminding you, this is a narrow channel, the rescuer essentially blocked the entire sector that would have been available for the tanker to use.
So far I have not seen anyone, including the OP, identify where in the channel the incident occurred and how much room was available.


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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
The only other option, going hard left, and leaving both small vessels to stbd would be discounted for two reasons: 1) colregs frowns on this (17 (c) A power-driven vessel which takes action in a crossing situation in accordance with subparagraph (a)(ii) of this Rule to avoid collision with another power-driven vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, not alter course to port for a vessel on her own port side.); and
2) he likely wouldn't have room to make large port then starboard turns without going aground outside the opposite side of the channel.
Seems like you are making a lot of your own assumptions about the situation that are not confirmed by the available information.
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Old 16-07-2015, 12:15   #101
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Re: Don't anchor in the channel and this won't happen.

Quote:
. Like this? Also a great example of the need to sometimes choose the lessor of multiple evils when it comes to piloting large vessels:
Yup, that is what I am talking about.
Seen quite a few in real life after years at sea, both commercial and pleasure.
I always stay far away from big stuff.
Except when they are anchored or docked, then I get close to wave and say hello to the crew hanging out on deck.
In 99.9% of the cases, the crew wish they were sailing a small boat with booze and bikini girls like us, instead of working the salt mines being far away from home and several months to go before they are home again.
Not rubbing it in to them, just a friendly greeting as I know what it is like do their job.

Speaking of chemical tankers:
Once in England, Teeport or Teeside, we were loading Methanol late at night and one of the crews had a hooker onboard. (not me of course)
When they were done she walked forward along the tank deck to get to the gangway, smoking a cigarette. The Chief Officer was on duty supervising the loading and caught her. He threw her off the ship so fast she had no idea what hit her. Poor girl.
Everybody caught holly hell the next day and female company from shore was
banned for the duration of the voyage. We were also pretty close to being in the history books for wiping out an entire port.
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Old 16-07-2015, 13:36   #102
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Re: Don't anchor in the channel and this won't happen.

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
40 years boating. Owned boats from 65' ketch to 32' racer cruisers, 18' to 36' power boats, deliveries on power up to 90', around 25,000 miles at sea. Guess that doesn't count for experience.
In how big ships handle? No.

Quote:
Please elaborate on what junk statement I made.
The one where you said it takes 2000-3000' for a big ship to make a 6-10 course alteration.
Quote:
Are you saying that at the start of the video the ship could have altered course to pass on the near side of the boat?
Why don't you pay attention to what I wrote. I said he probably would have gone on the other side, but was forced to go starboard prior to the start of the video.

Quote:
Since you claim all I say is wrong please inform me as to how many feet it would take that ship to alter course to pass on this side of the boat.
I've already said it. Read the thread.
Quote:
I don't drive one but I have shipped chemicals on them for 20 years and whether they carry crude oil or 2000 MT of acetone I hear them referred to as bulk or liquid bulk carriers. Not that this has anything at all to do with the point in question.
Bulk carriers carry loose solids - grain, coal, ore, etc. Tankers or tankerships carry liquids. Tankers are not called "bulk carriers" by anyone in the industry. Only applies for general edification.

Quote:
The relevance is you claim the rescue boat forced the ship to pass between the other boat and the buoy. So at what point was that action forced? Certainly not at the beginning of the video when the ship's course was committed.

So when?
Did you not read the thread? Before the video began. For all any of us know, at the start of the vid, the tanker could be in the middle of a turn.

Quote:
So far I have not seen anyone, including the OP, identify where in the channel the incident occurred and how much room was available.
Ambrose channel, entering New York. Read the thread.

The rest of your points are repeats. The answers are there - read the thread.
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Old 16-07-2015, 14:26   #103
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Re: Don't anchor in the channel and this won't happen.

I'm bored with this thread now.
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Old 16-07-2015, 14:29   #104
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Re: Don't anchor in the channel and this won't happen.

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Re: Don't anchor in the channel and this won't happen.
I'm bored with this thread now.
So sorry. How do we spice it up to un-bore you?
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Old 16-07-2015, 14:37   #105
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Re: Don't anchor in the channel and this won't happen.

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In how big ships handle? No.
Not in how they handle personally but I do know how to read what has been written by those that do handle big ships.

I stated my experience, perhaps you could share your background and the basis for your certainties.


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The one where you said it takes 2000-3000' for a big ship to make a 6-10 course alteration.
And I made it clear from the very beginning that I was making a guess on this. And I've asked several times for your information on this but so far nothing but criticism of my opinion with nothing to back it up.


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Why don't you pay attention to what I wrote. I said he probably would have gone on the other side, but was forced to go starboard prior to the start of the video.
And you know this for a fact how? You saw more of the video than the rest of us?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
Bulk carriers carry loose solids - grain, coal, ore, etc. Tankers or tankerships carry liquids. Tankers are not called "bulk carriers" by anyone in the industry. Only applies for general edification.
Yes chemical tankers is a proper term. All I can say is in meetings I had with people from Stolt and Odfjell in conversation they used the terms in the conversation. Maybe they were talking down to me as one who was ill informed.

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Did you not read the thread? Before the video began. For all any of us know, at the start of the vid, the tanker could be in the middle of a turn.
What good is pure speculation? "For all any of us know" could include an infinite number of possibilities.



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Ambrose channel, entering New York. Read the thread.
I didn't say I didn't know which channel. I read that as well as you. I said it wasn't confirmed where in the channel. In places it's over 50' deep outside the marked channel. And before you put more words in my mouth, no I'm not saying the ship should leave the channel.
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