docking w/ inexperienced crew?

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I know that many "boaters" refer to lines running perpendicular to a midship cleat as "breast lines", but strictly speaking, breast lines run from the bow or stern perpendicular to the dock:

Chapman's 50th Anniversary Edition (1972) describes breast lines as leading athwartships and can be from bow (forward), waist (midships), or quarter (aft). [My parens here, from a different sentence there.]

So there's another precedent for a midship's breast line being correct terminology.

OTOH, the 67th edition (2013) omits the waist option in that description.

FWIW, when we use the term, we tend to use both words joined: bow breast, or midship's breast, etc.

-Chris

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Chapman's 50th Anniversary Edition (1972) describes breast lines as leading athwartships and can be from bow (forward), waist (midships), or quarter (aft). [My parens here, from a different sentence there.]

So there's another precedent for a midship's breast line being correct terminology.

OTOH, the 67th edition (2013) omits the waist option in that description.

FWIW, when we use the term, we tend to use both words joined: bow breast, or midship's breast, etc.

-Chris

I stand corrected.


The "waist breast" is something I had never heard of.


But in any case, when we use a line from midships to help berthing, by powering against it, we're using it as a spring. And this line should be taken away after we get other lines on.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I stand corrected.

The "waist breast" is something I had never heard of.

But in any case, when we use a line from midships to help berthing, by powering against it, we're using it as a spring. And this line should be taken away after we get other lines on.

We tend to not use "waist" these days.... got enough of that to worry about elsewhere... hence midship's breast, etc.

Dunno when I first learned about breast lines; might have been in Chapman's 61st, the newest one I had (might still be around here, somewhere) before getting the Nook softcopy version to carry on the boat.

FWIW, we leave spring lines attached after docking, maybe after some adjustment at destination docks. Why would you not want spring lines attached?

-Chris

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

We tend to not use "waist" these days.... got enough of that to worry about elsewhere... hence midship's breast, etc.

Dunno when I first learned about breast lines; might have been in Chapman's 61st, the newest one I had (might still be around here, somewhere) before getting the Nook softcopy version to carry on the boat.

FWIW, we leave spring lines attached after docking, maybe after some adjustment at destination docks. Why would you not want spring lines attached?

-Chris

Short spring from midships -- we shorten it up as much as possible when docking so it works both ways. If you leave it on as shown in the Boat US diagram, it will snatch. This line should be taken off and lead fwd or aft to make a normal spring line. But of course everyone knows that! Sorry if I was being incoherent.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Short spring from midships -- we shorten it up as much as possible when docking so it works both ways. If you leave it on as shown in the Boat US diagram, it will snatch. This line should be taken off and lead fwd or aft to make a normal spring line. But of course everyone knows that! Sorry if I was being incoherent.

Yep, especially with a floating dock a midships breast line will generally have a large vertical angle to it. Lots of strain in the line if the boat is surging with wind/waves and not in a direction the dock cleat is designed to handle. Useful during maneuvering, but not for long term securing.



(If it's so shortened up so that you can use it both ways, I would call it a breast line, not a spring )

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Short spring from midships -- we shorten it up as much as possible when docking so it works both ways. If you leave it on as shown in the Boat US diagram, it will snatch. This line should be taken off and lead fwd or aft to make a normal spring line. But of course everyone knows that! Sorry if I was being incoherent.

Ah. Got it.

-Chris

[jmorrison146]

"Never approach the dock any faster than you want to hit the dock."

AND

"When in doubt, power out." If things are going badly, back out, regroup, and try again.

[Souzag818]

Well... This thread seems to have lost it's purpose. Too many authorities on the matter. Good luck, Exonerated in sorting it all out and coming up with what best works for you.

[Exonerated]

Originally Posted by Souzag818

Well... This thread seems to have lost it's purpose. Too many authorities on the matter. Good luck, Exonerated in sorting it all out and coming up with what best works for you.

Hah, thanks! There's definitely some good advice here despite the noise. And I've learned a bit about how to ask questions! (I didn't really think it's a good idea to hand over the helm to someone inexperienced, and I don't blame everyone making fun of me for that. I was really just listing some possibilities.)

Midship-to-midship seems like the way to go, but I still don't quite see how that can work without stepping off the boat (unless you have a perfectly-convenient attachment point).

To clarify for people skeptical of docking boats next to each other: The boat isn't mine - these belong to a club that I'm a member of. The club has limited dock space, so we put boats next to each other. (Yes, it does require moving them around sometimes.) I have some pretty good training from the club, but the courses consist of an instructor and several students with decent experience. I'm still working out how to do things short-handed.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Exonerated

. ..
Midship-to-midship seems like the way to go, but I still don't quite see how that can work without stepping off the boat (unless you have a perfectly-convenient attachment point).

To clarify for people skeptical of docking boats next to each other: The boat isn't mine - these belong to a club that I'm a member of. The club has limited dock space, so we put boats next to each other. (Yes, it does require moving them around sometimes.) I have some pretty good training from the club, but the courses consist of an instructor and several students with decent experience. I'm still working out how to do things short-handed.

Assuming the two boats (your and the one you're tying up to) are anywhere near the same size class, the midships cleat of the other boat will be at nearly the same level as the midships cleat on your boat, so it is a doddle to get a line tied on -- much easier than a cleat on a dock which you can't reach with your hands. So you really don't need to step off, and even when you do step off (to tie on the bow and stern lines), this is exceedingly simple due to the lack of a big difference in levels like you have with a dock.


Two boats lined up alongside each other will touch in the middle -- where the midships cleats are. There will be some distance between the bow cleats, and somewhat less between the stern cleats.



You'll be fine short handed. I would recommend just going out, and doing it -- you'll see.



To make it even easier -- this doesn't apply to my boat, but for any boat 40's of feet and less, and assuming you've got at least most of the motion off -- you can grab a shroud of the boat your tying up to, to do the final stabilization.

[Exonerated]

will be at nearly the same level as the midships cleat on your boat,

Hmm, I think I see the issue: Many of these boats don't actually have cleats at the midships-- just at the bow and stern. It's not actually a problem, we usually rig spring lines running from a winch to a bow or stern cleat. But it does make this procedure you're talking about trickier. Maybe temporarily we could put a line around a side-stay's chain plate.

(Yes, all the boats I'm talking about are between 30 and 40 ft.)

I appreciate the help!

[Pete17C]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

No, midship to midship, and work it up short. It will hold you in place by the same principle as a midship spring onto a dock.

Rafting is much simpler than tying up alongside a dock.

If the line is attached to your bow or stern rather than midship, one end of the boat will be out of control. Always start with a midship spring.

if you use an aft line, you can loop the cleat yourself from the cockpit/helm (no inexperienced crew or dock hand to mess things up), then motor at idle in forward, with helm turned to the dock, will bring the bow in, and the boat will stabilize like this

you might need to ease or take in the line to get the boat straight, but you stay safely in the cockpit

[Exonerated]

if you use an aft line, you can loop the cleat yourself from the cockpit/helm (no inexperienced crew or dock hand to mess things up), then motor at idle in forward, with helm turned to the dock, will bring the bow in, and the boat will stabilize like this

you might need to ease or take in the line to get the boat straight, but you stay safely in the cockpit

I like this. The boat should be very stable in low forward with an aft line attached at the correct length.

But I'm iffy about walking away from the helm with the engine still in engaged. So I think I would disengage and then quickly go aboard the other boat to secure everything. With lines ready, that should be no problem.

[Pete17C]

Originally Posted by Exonerated

I like this. The boat should be very stable in low forward with an aft line attached at the correct length.

But I'm iffy about walking away from the helm with the engine still in engaged. So I think I would disengage and then quickly go aboard the other boat to secure everything. With lines ready, that should be no problem.

Once you have the aft line attached (and tweaked close to the right length), let the boat stabilize, leaving the motor in forward at idle is what holds it against the dock/other boat, it will stay like that until you change something

I've done this, while the admiral went to get ice, and stood on the dock chatting with the dock hand for +5 min, just an aft line, helm turned in and motor at idle forward, the boat just stays there, like magic

[Pete17C]

I can see where when rafting, you don't want to start dragging the whole lot, motor to neutral and a quick step to the next boat might be needed