Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 18-10-2012, 19:57   #76
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: New England
Boat: Prairie 29
Posts: 201
Re: Docking In Heavy Wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Now that the "downwind" approach has been raised I guess people will have to decide their druthers.

First - Do I have a choice? Is there room to turn around? If not both techniques must be used.
Exactly. How about if this was in a dead end slip with no room to turn around?

Quote:
Speed - In 30 knots idling I imagine the downwind boat is still going to move at a good clip. Reversing introduces propwalk considerations but when slowed most boats will sit better stern to wind. Upwind cutting throttle the boat will slow at the risk of the bow falling off pretty rapidly.
Angle - Downwind I am not sure how easy it is to make the bow come up to make the turn. If the immediate upwind boat has its stern hanging out a wider approach than the "close as possible" may be necessary. Upwind you only have to put in minimum steering to get the "30 degree" angle into the pole.
either way you have to be close. but to come upwind you have to use MUCH more power (speed through the water) and you have to judge the swing to clear the pile, but still be close to it to get a line.

Quote:
Although there is complete validity to taking a break once the pole is captured you can also take a break with the upwind approach.
Assuming you got the line in the first place. Thus the need to start backing hard to clear the bow from the slip and the leeward yacht if you miss the pile.

Quote:
In either approach capturing the pole is the key event. Once 1/3 of the boat is between the pole on either approach the backing out bailout has high risk of bow collision with the leward pole.
But if you start out nearer the leeward boat you have removed much (if not all) of your 'get out of jail card' sea room to get some stern way on.

Quote:
As I said before I wouldn't have the guts to make this approach 2 up. I would be looking at other options - fuel dock, mooring ball, dockhand from the marina to catch a bow line etc. A 3rd person provides a lot more options.
Sometimes I feel it is better to get in, while we are still awake, and can function, after a couple hours getting thrashed around.

Quote:
This can go wrong in a big hurry.
In OH so many ways! But practicing in good weather makes it more doable. (Is that a word?)
__________________

__________________
cappy208 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-10-2012, 20:13   #77
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Re: Docking In Heavy Wind

Note that I am not advocating one way or another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post

either way you have to be close. but to come upwind you have to use MUCH more power (speed through the water) and you have to judge the swing to clear the pile, but still be close to it to get a line.
I disagree with this. Downwind you are subject to the windage of the boat unless you use reverse - 30 knots I don't think you could keep boat speed below 5 without reverse.

Upwind you need only enough power to maintain steerage (bow on wind) - 2 kts?


Quote:
Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
Assuming you got the line in the first place. Thus the need to start backing hard to clear the bow from the slip and the leeward yacht if you miss the pile.
Actually the deckhand can stand on the bow pulpit in the upwind approach and helm can take advantage by actually going between the pilings on the upwind side. His turning angle from head to wind to spear the pole is like 30 degrees - as the boat turns towards 90 the starboard rail stay close to the pole giving the deckhand a second shot.

On the downwind approach the arc described from downwind to 90 can vary based on the helms hand and the overhang of the next upwind boat. Once that arc gets too big you miss the pole completely. Or if the deckhand misses the boat is actually describing an arc where the stern is moving away from the pole.

In a bad approach the bow may actually have to describe a 100-120 turn if the pole is missed.

Either way capturing the pole is the key event - I think it is easier upwind.

How about in the "rest" position - achievable in each approach the deckhand either a) grabs the upwind boat's aft spring and "walks the bow forward hand over hand (maybe not doable with a heavy boat) or b) takes a bow line and walks across the upwind boats deck to the dock. Rude but possible.

The presumes there is an upwind boat and the deckhand can reach it on either approach.
__________________

__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-10-2012, 23:48   #78
Jd1
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Victoria, BC
Boat: Catalina 36 MKII
Posts: 1,096
Re: Docking In Heavy Wind

A somewhat naive question .... how do you guys get a line around the pole in the first place ?????

To put this in context, I am in BC and our piles are somewhere in the maybe 20" diameter and maybe 10 ft or more above the water line (and covered in black goo and/or muscles). In other words, you can't get a loop over the top unless you are some freakish cowboy with excellent lasso handling technique and getting a line around the pole involves two hands and a big hug for the pole (of course you will have to hold on to the pole for dear life as the boat is probably several feet away from the pole by the time you finished hugging it).
Is there some kind of a technique or special 'pole capture' tool ??????
__________________
Jd1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-10-2012, 00:10   #79
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Re: Docking In Heavy Wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jd1 View Post
A somewhat naive question .... how do you guys get a line around the pole in the first place ?????

To put this in context, I am in BC and our piles are somewhere in the maybe 20" diameter and maybe 10 ft or more above the water line (and covered in black goo and/or muscles). In other words, you can't get a loop over the top unless you are some freakish cowboy with excellent lasso handling technique and getting a line around the pole involves two hands and a big hug for the pole (of course you will have to hold on to the pole for dear life as the boat is probably several feet away from the pole by the time you finished hugging it).
Is there some kind of a technique or special 'pole capture' tool ??????
A weighted 'monkey's fist' in the end of the line, flake out somewhat more than twice the distance to the back of the pole, swing the line hard, in a wide arc intersecting the pole past the midpoint, and hope you catch the weighted ball end before it whaaaaaccks you in the side of the face, just where it REALLY hurts.
__________________
Andrew Troup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-10-2012, 05:30   #80
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,939
Images: 1
Re: Docking In Heavy Wind

Thank you for the alternative cappy. It also looks doable, but if the upwind boat in the next slip sticks out too far, you will have too great of an angle to get your bow in, and your boat will be drifting sideways. If the upwind boat does not stick then the downwind approaach will work.

Just for you info. I have brought my boat into harbour in situations very much like atoll video - good ride and very entertaining. Will we hit the hole? Or the breakwater? Keeps the helmsman from falling asleep, and that type of entrance does also usually require a clean pair of shorts when you finally are in (and one or more cold ones!)

Both the cappy and the atoll/starzinger approaches are gonna need to be practiced, practiced, practiced ( in situations without wind)

Re how to get a rope on the pole. The "monkey fist" approach is asking to get whacked in the mouth. Don't forget, if the helmsman is doing his job, the crewman at the bow will pass within a foot of the pole. In this type of landing, i would use a loop around the pole, not noose of some kind. You can hold one end of the loop up with a boat hook, and it will fall overnthe pole as you go by.

For those of you asking why anyone would ever want to leave in 35 knots - mother-in-laws 75 th birthday? Admirals can be pretty insistent when they have a mind to be
__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-10-2012, 05:34   #81
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: New England
Boat: Prairie 29
Posts: 201
Re: Docking In Heavy Wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
A weighted 'monkey's fist' in the end of the line, flake out somewhat more than twice the distance to the back of the pole, swing the line hard, in a wide arc intersecting the pole past the midpoint, and hope you catch the weighted ball end before it whaaaaaccks you in the side of the face, just where it REALLY hurts.
This is exactly how I use the heavy snapshackle on the end. It has the momentum to make it around the pile, and you can quickly snap it right around the line to make it fast. From my commercial experience, it is possible to throw a bight of line more accurately over a pile than just an eye, but in the case described here throwing a bight directly into 30 kts is most likely foolhardy.
__________________
cappy208 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-10-2012, 05:38   #82
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: New England
Boat: Prairie 29
Posts: 201
Re: Docking In Heavy Wind

Regarding the large pile. Don't they generally have either a chain or a pipe running verticle down the onshore side?
__________________
cappy208 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-10-2012, 09:52   #83
Jd1
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Victoria, BC
Boat: Catalina 36 MKII
Posts: 1,096
Re: Docking In Heavy Wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
Regarding the large pile. Don't they generally have either a chain or a pipe running verticle down the onshore side?
The piles in my marina hold the dock in place and have a large steel hoop around the pile at dock level. I am not familiar with free standing piles as discussed in this thread.

Thanks for the 'monkey fist' pointer. Something to store in the back of my mind when the situation gets hairy. BTW, I wouldn't want to throw a snap shackle around the pile because sure as shooting it would hit me in the head on it's return and knock me out cold
__________________
Jd1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-10-2012, 09:59   #84
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: New England
Boat: Prairie 29
Posts: 201
Re: Docking In Heavy Wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jd1 View Post
The piles in my marina hold the dock in place and have a large steel hoop around the pile at dock level. I am not familiar with free standing piles as discussed in this thread.

Thanks for the 'monkey fist' pointer. Something to store in the back of my mind when the situation gets hairy. BTW, I wouldn't want to throw a snap shackle around the pile because sure as shooting it would hit me in the head on it's return and knock me out cold

It is technique. I have learned to flip it around at about chest level, so by the time it gets around it is it a hip or knee level. I cant imagine doing it at head level! That would be a little hard to catch. But too low, and it is out of reach lower than the lifelines.
__________________
cappy208 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-10-2012, 13:00   #85
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Re: Docking In Heavy Wind

carsten: I agree the monkey's fist need not be used if you have reliable access to the top of the pile.

The question I was responding to involved being close to a pile at the initial phase but not being able to rely on your arms reaching to meet around the back (especially if you fumble, and the boat is being blown off)

In this situation, the 'fist' method (once you get good at judging how much line to use) does not involve the risk of taking a whack: the line will simply orbit the pile more than 360 degrees, and the 'fist' will fall over the standing line and wait for you to grap it.

I was also thinking this was worth bringing to wider attention because of situations where either the pile is too tall (holding a loop aloft, at full stretch on a boathook, is not easy in strong winds and a bit of jobble) or in the case of piles which have ladders, throughbolts, blocking preventing a loop slipping down, or whose top is not open: say at a shipping terminal, whose piles terminate under a wharf:

The monkey fist manoeuvre has its place, and a fist heavy enough to present a risk is really only needed for heavy lines, long distances, or extreme winds.

As far as what to use for a weight: a small plastic bottle (maybe you know them as plastic jugs?) with an integral handle makes a good fist of it - ideally a squat one rather than a tall one. It doesn't do you injury when it hits you, even if full of water for a long throw.

Heavy snapshackles are convenient and compact, though, and good for someone who has the technique, as cappy says.

The antidote to being whacked in the mouth is to first get in some practice. You might choose to do this on dry land, say using a variety of tree trunks of varying diameter, starting with an empty bottle. Get some kids involved if you want to spread the fun around.

You may not be able to do the low throw referred to above if you're behind lifelines on the deck. In this situation, if the 'plane of the ecliptic' (IOW the orbit) is tilted the right way, the monkey's fist will return above head height: you hold up your arm and the rope will self-wrap around it.
__________________
Andrew Troup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-2012, 05:33   #86
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,939
Images: 1
Re: Docking In Heavy Wind

So thanks again all. Andrew, I'm not sure I would want a "monkey's fist", even a plastic bottle flying around during docking, but as with everything else, If practiced enough, you get good at it.

For those that wonder why anyone would be out in a gale.......

I seem to remember Evans Starzinger saying something like "why waste a good wind?" My wife and I do sail out when faced with winds of 30+ knots. Why waste it? If the wind is on the beam or aft - it's a great ride. Admittedly, if you have to tack through it - it's a chore.

So we do face these situations a couple of times each summer. I will be practicing both Cappy's and Atoll/starzinger approach next year (aside from teaching on the course).

Don't sailors other places get caught out in heavy weather? What do they do?

Finally, If any of you should decide to sail the Baltic, get in touch ,and I'll make get you lots of cruising information.

__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2013, 19:10   #87
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 21
Re: Docking In Heavy Wind

Pardon my late entry, and possibly foolish suggestion.

As this course is for folks like me, people who shouldn't be performing this maneuver but might have to anyways, it seems the lowest stress option may be the best.

First option... motor upwind several boat lengths beyond the slip in the middle of the slipway and drop anchor, then settle back and set the anchor so that the stern is in line with the leeward piling. Breathe. Now slow ahead with slight helm toward the slip so that some part of the boat comes in proximity either to the windward piling, or the boat in the windward slip and use a cleat or other strongpoint to fashion a second windward tether.

You now have two points of tension to help aim the boat, and can establish firm control to the windward piling with two lines. Breathe. Consider your options, which now include securing a stern line to the dock with a dinghy. Then you have three points of tension and the problem becomes academic. Alternatively, use a line to a strongpoint on the neighboring windward vessel to direct the stern.

Second option is less bombproof, and more dependent on helmsman ability, is to tie a long line to another piling to windward of the vessel to windward, and use that to direct the bow. Positive use of helm would make this option possible, but I wouldn't attempt it.
__________________
phillysailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 00:50   #88
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,939
Images: 1
Re: Docking In Heavy Wind

hi philly,

no this doesn't sound foolish at all, but I wonder just how easily all this can be accomplished. if there is no other traffic, then you could do this. if anyone else wants to come down the fairway, you've screwed the pooch.

You would also have to figure a way to recover your anchor, unless you want to leave it out there (marina might frown on this).




Quote:
Originally Posted by phillysailor View Post
Pardon my late entry, and possibly foolish suggestion.

As this course is for folks like me, people who shouldn't be performing this maneuver but might have to anyways, it seems the lowest stress option may be the best.

First option... motor upwind several boat lengths beyond the slip in the middle of the slipway and drop anchor, then settle back and set the anchor so that the stern is in line with the leeward piling. Breathe. Now slow ahead with slight helm toward the slip so that some part of the boat comes in proximity either to the windward piling, or the boat in the windward slip and use a cleat or other strongpoint to fashion a second windward tether.

You now have two points of tension to help aim the boat, and can establish firm control to the windward piling with two lines. Breathe. Consider your options, which now include securing a stern line to the dock with a dinghy. Then you have three points of tension and the problem becomes academic. Alternatively, use a line to a strongpoint on the neighboring windward vessel to direct the stern.

Second option is less bombproof, and more dependent on helmsman ability, is to tie a long line to another piling to windward of the vessel to windward, and use that to direct the bow. Positive use of helm would make this option possible, but I wouldn't attempt it.
__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 00:57   #89
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Re: Docking In Heavy Wind

Phillysailor

That's not at all silly, in fact it's how ships do it, in cases where tugs are undersized or cost too much :-).

They leave the anchor down, of course, and it helps get them off the wharf when that time comes.
__________________
Andrew Troup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 14:01   #90
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2
This might be a big no-no for some people, but what we tend to do in a hefty side wind is to put almost all our fenders on the leeward side of the boat, fix a line with a pre-made noose from the stern to about midships on the windward side and a line at the bow on the windward side. The idea is that I steer in close to the windward piling and my wife drops the noose over the piling. If she misses, I get another chance. After this, I completely disregard the stern line and concentrate on getting my wife safely (we don't EVER jump ashore or try to fend off the boat manually) onto the quay, as far upwind as possible. She steps ashore and attaches the bow line, gets back on board (rather swiftly, thank you, since the bow is now moving rapidly towards the leeward boat), tightens the bowline and gives me the sign that all is well up there. At this point I go apeshit on the stern line, tightening it like my life depends on it and belaying it. If all goes as planned, we are now securely tied and can move the boat so we can attach a line to the leeward piling and so on. If any part goes wrong, we simply let our boat rest on the leeward boat, letting our fenders save the leeward boat's paintwork and, thus, our economy until we can get out lines attached (by dinghy or swimming, if necessary). Leaving the dock works much the same way, now using a doubled line ashore, slowly easing the boat out as far as possible with tight lines before I slam the reverse on full and get us out before the bow runs off downwind once again. Our son is now in an age where he is starting to be useful in these situations, which makes things a bit easier. Me and my wife also trade places once in a while, just to make sure that we both can handle each other's jobs, but we both hate it
__________________

__________________
Nautihamstern is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Docking, wind

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 18:43.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.