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Old 26-01-2016, 12:49   #31
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Re: Difficult/sloppy crew

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What lines are we talking about, can you be a bit more specific as to what they are doing wrong?
To be specific at one time it was the working jib sheet and it was laying in a heap with the main sheet and also being stepped on so when they needed to trim sails they basically couldn't, not timely anyway.

Then when tacking was not able to allow the line to run free so our tack was stopped completely when the jib became fouled.

I think maybe next time out it might be a matter of going over the very basic basics for all our sakes.
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Old 26-01-2016, 13:17   #32
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Re: Difficult/sloppy crew

You see, that's the trouble with fin keel boats. It makes keel hauling much harder. Do you keep a plank on board? 😀😇😚


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Old 26-01-2016, 13:32   #33
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Re: Difficult/sloppy crew

Thanks for the clarifying. It's tough one given you are all equal owners.

Maybe let them take the helm more often to see what happens when it's done properly, (or improperly).

It sounds as if no one has formal instruction, because most instructors wouldn't let anyone get away with that. So, it wouldn't hurt to hire an instructor. And to keep it strictly between instructor and student I would suggest not having all three on board at once. Ideally, each of you should spend 3 hours with him alone with no. And then a 3 hour lesson as a group.
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Old 26-01-2016, 14:19   #34
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Re: Difficult/sloppy crew

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Maybe let them take the helm more often to see what happens when it's done properly, (or improperly).
If everyone is equal partners everyone should have that portion of time on the wheel, that portion of the time as skipper

You are not the skipper. So you can't be the all-the-time hard-ass.

Lighten up and be fair.


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Old 26-01-2016, 14:36   #35
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Re: Difficult/sloppy crew

Asking a perfectionist to lighten up is kind of like trying to stuff a body into the trunk of a Miata.
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Old 26-01-2016, 14:52   #36
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Re: Difficult/sloppy crew

What about having an experienced sailor, preferably someone known by all the crew, come along for a sail with the idea he might be able to suggest better procedures, etc.?
Advice might be better received from a talented outsider than from one of the crew members (yourself).
The other owners might have some questions of their own.
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Old 26-01-2016, 15:22   #37
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Re: Difficult/sloppy crew

No one's keeping anyone from the wheel. More like I was being kept ON the wheel because wind was up and they didn't feel comfortable switching spots.
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Old 26-01-2016, 16:20   #38
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Re: Difficult/sloppy crew

Sovereign,

When i got my start, it was low level club racing in the smaller boats. My first few sails, all i did was make up lines, after each tack. Later on, i learned ways to do that where they were set to run free when needed, not "coiled, with a twist".

It now sounds as if the other guys have confidence in you. So, just gently keep after it, or suggest that everyone take a hand at it. If you have rope bags, the lines can be faked down into them so they'll run free. Otherwise, ropes have the most amazing behavior of making knots in themselves when you're not looking. Attention to making them ready to run is like attention to avoid overrides on the winches. But if you all share a turn at it, maybe they'll be more accepting of the request, and then experience the benefits of it.

Incidentally, we used to chuck all the tails not in use down the companionway, that were aft to the cockpit. The halyard tails at the mast, secured with one wrap on the line, and secured to the cleat with a half hitch, enough to keep it there through pounding to weather, but easy to release quickly.

I really don't think this is a perfectionist deal, and not too much of a safety issue, more, it is about making everything work smoothly while you all are out having a good time.

I think there are often personality clashes with multiple ownership boats, and it can be really difficult to handle them positively. Maybe you can lead by just doing it, while you're helming. It's not really great to have to divide your attention that way, but consider it practice for singlehanded daysailing, but if it's awkward and they can see it when you say, "Hey, could one of you guys fake this line down for me?", maybe they'll get the idea.
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Old 26-01-2016, 17:20   #39
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Re: Difficult/sloppy crew

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Originally Posted by Sovereign797 View Post
Ok, so I am a new sailor, my whole crew is, in fact, and since the whole thing was my idea and I have done the most research and continue to, we all agree I'm the skipper.

I'm a bit of a perfectionist and especially since we're all learning I like a clean boat, a place for everything and everything in its place. Especially the ropes.
Sovereign, you've provided a perfect segway for some sailboat trivia, and since you apparently enjoy research...

How many ropes on a boat?

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Old 26-01-2016, 17:46   #40
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Re: Difficult/sloppy crew

A sailboat is a machine full of moving pieces and almost all of them are exposed and either underfoot or conveniently ready to grab and amputate some piece of the crew. Or foul up and bring the machine to a nasty halt which can total the boat.


One difference between a sailor and some guest aboard for the day, is that the sailor will ALWAYS be glancing around when things are slow, and tidying up things like piles of line. You've got nothing to do? Then either serve the snacks, or help put the boat in order. If you can't figure that out, you shouldn't be crewing on a sailboat.
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Old 26-01-2016, 18:14   #41
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Re: Difficult/sloppy crew

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Sovereign, you've provided a perfect segway for some sailboat trivia, and since you apparently enjoy research...

How many ropes on a boat?

Did you mean "segue?"

I know they're called lines, I am still transitioning my language.

And if you're not just picking on a new sailor, then 1, the one on the bell
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Old 26-01-2016, 18:27   #42
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Re: Difficult/sloppy crew

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Did you mean "segue?"

I know they're called lines, I am still transitioning my language.

And if you're not just picking on a new sailor, then 1, the one on the bell
More than 1. Bell rope is not the only answer...and don't feel bad. I know folks who've been sailing 20+ years that don't know the answer to the question and since most of them don't sail on boats large enough to actually require a bell very often (if at all) many never even think about a bell rope, so kudos to you for knowing that. The default answer is typically, "there are no ropes on a boat..."

Since you are a perfectionist, you probably don't want your crew calling sheets, lines, and halyards, ropes. Maybe you don't care now but you most likely will someday.

and you're right about segue...spelling was never my strong suit and if the spell checker doesn't catch it then
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Old 26-01-2016, 18:47   #43
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Re: Difficult/sloppy crew

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Originally Posted by Sovereign797 View Post
Ok, so I am a new sailor, my whole crew is, in fact, and since the whole thing was my idea and I have done the most research and continue to, we all agree I'm the skipper.

I'm a bit of a perfectionist and especially since we're all learning I like a clean boat, a place for everything and everything in its place. Especially the ropes. I don't like lines laying everywhere, tangled with each other. I keep them tidy myself but when I'm on the helm I can see my crew struggling and it's because they take no care with their area, not because they don't know what is expected for the simple maneuvers we're doing.

My question is, should I address this or let it go and allow them to see their own mistakes? My instinct is to address it, but that may just be my perfectionism.

It feels a bit odd to act like I know better than they when we've all sailed the same amount.
When I've made mention of it in passing, the response is along the lines of, 'it's fine.'
The short answer is address it before you leave the dock.

The long answer is:

My wife and I are co captains. We are also both ex military which makes it simple for us to manage issues like this. Whoever has the helm is in charge. The boat also comes first.

We also have a ships book which clearly describes all the systems and procedures necessary to operate the vessel. We don't however have a procedure for coiling lines or keeping tidy. These are assumed competencies.

So what do we do if someone is on board without the necessary skills and competencies? They either stay out of the way, learn with a mentor or gain the skills off the boat.

We have numerous checklists for mission and safety critical procedures. They must always be followed. No shortcuts and no excuses.

Before we leave the dock we have several checklists we work through. The one of interest in this discussion is our safety briefing. We allocate roles and responsibilities. Here you may be assigned a mentor, be told not to do something or we might even have on the job training. Cleanliness and following the captains directions is a mandatory safety requirement. We also teach our passengers nautical terms. Making it fun and entertaining helps keep the piece.

To avoid running a press gang ship it pays to see who wants to learn. Teach them to coil lines at the dock. Once they're competent you can assign them a task.

Don't forget to have fun. Arguments underway are always to be avoided.

Running a bristol boat is something I admire.

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Old 26-01-2016, 19:03   #44
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Re: Difficult/sloppy crew

I'm glad you mentioned this, leftbrainstuff, because this is part of 'the struggle' too. I am ex-military and still work in a mil environment around military and ex-mil folk. It's very easy for us all to communicate in a way that we're used to, not to mention we have ingrained habits like keeping things orderly.

My two sailing mates are not.
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Old 26-01-2016, 19:19   #45
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Re: Difficult/sloppy crew

Hmmm. I read the title to this one and I have to admit, it got my hackles up.

In my mind there is no such thing, and certainly not when all are equal shareholders in the boat.

My title would read more like "Managing different expectations"

The OP has a set of expectations of how the boat will be run that are not without merit, but clearly are not shared by the other owners of the boat.

My suggestion is that the other owners feel disenfranchised and have surrendered responsibility. And I am sorry to say it, but the title of the thread makes me suspect the OP is the source of this disconnect.

To the OP. Just relax mate. Stand back a bit. Let the other owners "own" the issues. All of us learn in our own way and maybe they need to really be in charge, without fear of judgment or criticism. I think each of you should take out the boat without the others, with crew or instructors of your own choice, and each become equally confident in the handling and management of the boat on your own.

Of course after this you will all have to work on agreed expectations but you will all be doing it from an equal footing and to my mind that is a better recipe for success.

Matt


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