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Old 08-10-2016, 15:38   #1
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Defeating Chaff

Seeing all the boats in distress in the current hurricane makes me crazy that so few boats use a very simple expedient to defeat chaff: a stout eye on the stem at the water line.
Attach a nylon line and use it as a snubber. For guys who have all chain rodes a simple rolling hitch is all that is needed to connect the main rode. Let out enough line so that this snubber engages. Since at 40 knots a chain is a solid rod and ALL the catenary is maxed out, it is necessary to put some elasticity into the system.
Now I know that many of you have a snubber (God help you if the chain is running over the bow), but it is on a roller or hawse. I also know that you realize that it is internal friction, not abrasion, which is the chief cause of failure.
A snubber which is totally in the water is cooled and so the internal friction is lessened. (I honestly have no evidence to support this view, but it does seem like common sense.)
I walked through the boatyard and not one in 10 yachts have a water line eye. I don't get it. what possible reason is there to not have one?

Now it is heresy to say so but I think a proper rode is half (or even less) chain and the remainder triple strand or double braid with the ultimate breaking strength the same as the chain. mine is 5/16 G-4.
my boat is a Pearson 35, relatively light. My storm anchor is a 20kg Mantus.
Another advantages of a water line eye it is a much better place for a towline and also lessens roaming at anchor.
pdenton

If this be error, and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.
WS xvii
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Old 08-10-2016, 18:51   #2
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Re: Defeating Chaff

What's chaff?

I have never heard of the word outside of a horse stable.
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Old 08-10-2016, 18:57   #3
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Re: Defeating Chaff

^^^^
Chafing, I think is what he has in mind, like chafing gear. Said deadpan. I think they call us "grammar Grannies," not exactly a term of endearment. ;-)

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Old 08-10-2016, 19:16   #4
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Re: Defeating Chaff

Chaff... ain't that the stuff jet jockeys dump out to defeat radar targeted missiles chasing them through the sky?

I bet the guys at Raytheon and such like places know all about defeating chaff... or wish they did!

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Old 08-10-2016, 19:46   #5
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Re: Defeating Chaff

Speling is mi Akilles heal.
So now that we've gotten that out of the way give me a critique of what I said.
These many years ago I speared fish in the tangle of metal on Moreton island where the old whaling station had been. A lot of current, a lot of sharks, and a lot of fond memories. Are the pylons still in the river next to the botanical gardens? Again many fond memories of Brisbane where I first drank Abbot Stout, the only real competition to Dublin's brew.
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Old 08-10-2016, 19:55   #6
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Re: Defeating Chaff

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdenton View Post
Speling is mi Akilles heal.
So now that we've gotten that out of the way give me a critique of what I said.
These many years ago I speared fish in the tangle of metal on Moreton island where the old whaling station had been. A lot of current, a lot of sharks, and a lot of fond memories. Are the pylons still in the river next to the botanical gardens? Again many fond memories of Brisbane where I first drank Abbot Stout, the only real competition to Dublin's brew.
pdenton
Tangle of metal? I guess that you refer to the "Wrecks of Tanglooma", off Moreton island... yes, they are still there, ugly as ever, and there are still folks anchoring in the gutter between them and the beach. And the pilings are still there in the Brisbane river. I believe that they have just been refurbished, and there have been some rumors of changing the rules for use thereof, but I've not got any actual knowledge to share there.

Moreton Bay is a decent venue for day sailing, and for short term cruising, but it lacks many anchorages where it is practical to sit out a vigorous NW/S frontal passage... a common enough event here. We're sitting at Canaipa point down in the Broadwater today for just such a change, and it has been ok, but not really a part of the bay IMO, and with limited access for deep draft vessels. Oh well, we're here and enjoying it!

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Old 08-10-2016, 20:42   #7
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Re: Defeating Chaff

And..................

Back to the original question. Another Pearson owner, Tor Penney, who has a 424 has done exactly what you ask and after a couple of years cruising with it has been very pleased with the results. He finds benefits for all the reasons you mention and more.

This is on my to do list. Just make sure the bow of the boat is up to it (doesn't seem to be an issue with Pearsons) or add reinforcing and for any boat some serious backing plates to distribute the load.
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Old 08-10-2016, 21:02   #8
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Re: Defeating Chaff

Sorry to distract from the OP but thought a photo of chaff as per Jim Cate might be of interest to some. The different lengths of wire correspond to different radar frequencies. Enjoy!
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Old 08-10-2016, 21:16   #9
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Re: Defeating Chaff

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Old 08-10-2016, 21:21   #10
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Re: Defeating Chaff

No, those are flares to defeat IR. Chaff is for radar.
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Old 08-10-2016, 21:22   #11
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Re: Defeating Chaff

pdenton,

Well, as to anchoring in a hurricane, using a waterline pad eye for the low down snubber line, sure it works, fine. It is, however, difficult to let it out when you want to lengthen it, people are forever telling you have a line in the water if you keep it permanently rigged, and eventually, we took ours off. I don't think it has any application for tieing up, in a marina, though, it is for anchoring, and it worked fine. It is a good idea for some boats, I guess is how I'd put it. The lack of chafe is --of course-- its greatest appeal.

In our case, we have a much larger in diameter snubber line (16 mm nylon double braid) than most cruisers use. It limits the "slingshot effect", and it shares the roller with the chain. We have sat out a number of vigorous frontal passages in Tasmania (Port Davey), one with sustained 55's with gusts around 65 with the system, and no chafe problems, so far, touch wood, and all that. When possible, we tuck up into the best protection we can find.

I think for leaving boats tied up (as people in the US do, for the whole hurricane season) preventing chafe is a major issue, you need chafing gear on your own cleats, and on the dock. Etc.

A suggestion, pdenton, why don't you pick any post here, and ask the Moderators to fix the spelling, then maybe it will take off and you will get the discussion you hoped for.

Sorry it didn't work out how you'd planned.

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Old 08-10-2016, 21:28   #12
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Re: Defeating Chaff

Also, not just jets. Ships use it too.
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Old 08-10-2016, 23:28   #13
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Re: Defeating Chaff

During WW2 the Brits called it windows. The Dam Buster 617 Squadron was employed to do low level drops of it on the night before the D Day landings to confuse German radar as to the number and direction of the shipping involved in the invasion fleet.
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Old 09-10-2016, 05:15   #14
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Re: Defeating Chaff

To continue the thread diversion

The anti-radar chaff was so called because of its similarity to real chaff:

Chopped straw/hay.

Also the seed coverings separated from grains such as wheat.
(Hence the proverbial phrase "separate the wheat from the chaff" - to save the good stuff and discard the rubbish)
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