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Old 09-10-2008, 22:31   #91
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Bill Streep, following your theory, does beam come into the equasion as well as L.O.A.?
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Old 10-10-2008, 03:30   #92
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I could care less about that big ugly half chinese looking, half modern yacht, BUT;
If you look at the aerial shots of the scene, MF as the larger vessel was restricted in her ability to manouver as she was surrounded by who knows how many other vessels close by. Any abrupt course change would have played havoc on the Bay. Maintaining course was the proper and prudent thing to do
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Old 10-10-2008, 06:54   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Santana View Post
I could care less about that big ugly half chinese looking, half modern yacht, BUT;
If you look at the aerial shots of the scene, MF as the larger vessel was restricted in her ability to manouver as she was surrounded by who knows how many other vessels close by. Any abrupt course change would have played havoc on the Bay. Maintaining course was the proper and prudent thing to do
Unless I'm mistaken, those aerial shots were taken at a different time. In the shots taken during the incident, no other boats appear in the photos that would have been a factor. Doesn't mean there weren't any, just that they weren't in the line of sight of the photos. And no report from the scene mentioned any other boats as being a factor.

If the situation were as you perceived, I would agree with your reasoning. But, IF she were surrounded by boats at that close range and doing the speed she appears to be making at the time of the collision, then it could be argued it was excessive speed for the situation. With no other boats around, it's a different matter. I haven't gone back to look at the aerial photos, but if I remember correctly, in those shots she appeared to be going slower.

So, in any the photos I've seen, I haven't seen any evidence to show any improper operation on her part. Doesn't mean they didn't do something wrong. Just that in the photos, I don't see any evidence to prove it.

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Old 10-10-2008, 07:29   #94
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Superyacht Captain’s Rant

I have to laugh at all you armchair Superyacht captains who haven’t a clue what it takes to thread the needle when every other boat on the water is trying to get you in the background shot and still keep the wife in focus.

Sometimes it is insane and a pilot is totally useless and out of his depth.
(btw... The Pilot is never legally in command).

I have been in places like Auckland at the Americas Cup where you had to shoot the gap thru the entrance at speed into AC Village because of a strong side current and shoal water on one side. Having only 12 feet to spare on either side!

Now picture that with 500 spectator boats, forming a moving gauntlet and crowding the entrance,.... jockeying for the best close up and there is always... at least one drunk guy in an inner tube blissfully drifting into your path.

It aint easy!

Now an incident like with MF happens and some judge both the MF Captain and the SB to be on the same level of awareness about multilateral considerations and demonize the owner because he is rich (and must therefore be ruthless).

I had an incident once where a 45ft boat ploughed into the Superyacht bow raking both bow sides down to bare metal. The next day the 45ft owner changed the boat’s legal Ownership to a foreign holding company with $28 in assets.

Day after that... his insurance company refuses to get involved because the police sobriety test measured him at just under the limit.

We had no choice but to seize his boat.

A couple of days later, Front page headlines… “Superyacht Billionaire sues local yachtsman, seizes his boat”. ….and how unfair and ruthless we were being to this poor guy.

Oh! I forgot to mention…..we were tied to the dock when the collision happened!

Geeez….. give those guys a break and stay out of their way!
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Old 10-10-2008, 07:37   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Santana View Post
MF as the larger vessel was restricted in her ability to manouver
What aerial shots? If you're talking about the photos of MF under the Golden Gate, that was a different time and place from the incident being discussed. I agree with dan that from the incident photos and those preceeding, there appears to be few vessels close to MF.

While I think I understand what you're saying, it should be pointed out that "restricted in ability to manoeuvre (RAM)" is a condition that is described in the Rules - Maltese Falcon was not restricted in her ability to manoeuvre by the Rules definition.
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Old 10-10-2008, 07:53   #96
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I have to laugh at all you armchair Superyacht captains who haven’t a clue what it takes to thread the needle when every other boat on the water is trying to get you in the background shot and still keep the wife in focus.
Are you taking a shot at me, or is it some other armchair Superyacht captain to which you refer? While I've never captained a superyacht, I have threaded a lot of large vessels through needles. I bet the Tokyo Wan rush hour would have most of you small boat guys (and ranting superyacht captains) soiling yourselves. Not every boat out there is out to get a picture op - and nobody has yet shown me a photo of either of the guys in SB holding a camera.

Quote:
Now an incident like with MF happens and some judge both the MF Captain and the SB to be on the same level of awareness about multilateral considerations and demonize the owner because he is rich (and must therefore be ruthless).
I don't recall anyone referencing the owner's wealth. I see a lot of people demonizing the owner of the small boat - for what?

Quote:
Geeez….. give those guys a break and stay out of their way!
Are you suggesting that big ships don't need to follow the rules? If everyone followed the rules and used common sense, there wouldn't be any problems.
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Old 10-10-2008, 08:42   #97
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I'm actually still very surprised that this thread and intense debate is still raging!!! My view is, "so what!" Ok it happened, most of the people here weren't there and even so, it wasn't your boat involved. It is unfortunate that it did happen but, they will take care of it themselves.

I would imagine that a lot of people here have way more things to discuss then something that doesn't even come close to involving them. I love to discuss happenings as much as the next guy but just reading some of the posts, my reaction is, OK!!

Anyway, I always appreciate everyone's input for other matters.

Just my .00002 cents
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Old 10-10-2008, 10:59   #98
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shadow,

While you are correct that this particular incident doesn't involve me, the discussion it has generated is about colregs, and to a lesser degree, handling a sailboat. It may be selfish of me, but I have a personal interest in ensuring other boaters out there know the Rules.


Kevin
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Old 10-10-2008, 11:21   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
John - this statement was attributed to Mr Perkins: "Prior to the photos shown here, "Stand By" was bearing away, and the two yachts were on safe courses to pass roughly with a distance of 200 feet separation. After the "Stand By" had sailed past the Falcon's bow, the smaller vessel suddenly rounded up, possibly to tack in order to follow the Falcon, when she lost control, and with her main sheeted hard in, the smaller boat was unable to bear away to avoid a collision."

Do you honestly feel 200 feet is a safe passing distance in this circumstance?
If those were not his words, then I offer my profound apologies to Mr Perkins. However it remains that the person that made that statement is an imbecile and likely a liar. That of course is only my opinion.

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Jeez Kevin,
Looks like you sucked me back into your debate.
From the statement you give above it sounds to me like the skipper of MF saw the smaller yacht approachh on stb and bear away to pass the stern of MF and in his opinion pass 200 yard behind.
Is that in those circumstances - in my opinion - a safe distance?

Er. Yes.

JOHN
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Old 10-10-2008, 12:04   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
shadow,

While you are correct that this particular incident doesn't involve me, the discussion it has generated is about colregs, and to a lesser degree, handling a sailboat. It may be selfish of me, but I have a personal interest in ensuring other boaters out there know the Rules.


Kevin
Actually, the Colregs demarcation line is outside of the San Francisco Bay, so the Colregs don't apply.
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Old 10-10-2008, 12:27   #101
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Hi Lodesman,

Just saw your last post. I'll agree with you on one thing - it's all hearsay to you and me.

But then I'm not the one calling the MF skipper an imbicile.

Let it go - wait for the inquiry.

If MF is in the wrong I'll acknowledge you read the situation correctly.
If MF is in the right maybe you apologise to the MF skipper?

That's plenty enough from me on this one.
Goodnight.

JOHN
Lodesman, I could not improve on this answer other than to remind all of Rule 2.......

RULE 2
RESPONSIBILITY
(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master, or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.
(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.
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Old 10-10-2008, 14:21   #102
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Presumably the little sailboat is a fin keeler. Even though the photograph sequence before impact is only a few seconds, I can discern no turning movement to indicate any evasion action by little sailboat.

I would not expect to be able to discern from the photograph sequence any evasive action by big sailboat.

Who had the right of way is significant, but not necessarily conclusive. All parties have a responsibility immediately prior to impact to take evasive action. Rule number one is thou shall not hit stuff.

So, big boat may or may not share responsibility for failing to give way, depending on activity the photographs don't show.

But I fail to see any circumstance, given these photographs, where little boat can argue that it took evasive action. It does not appear to bear in any direction other than straight ahead.

Further, from their conduct on board it appears that captain and crew of little sailboat never saw big sailboat until just before impact, which goes a long way explaining why no discernable turning movement is visible. It is pretty obvious when captain and crew on little sailboat begin to react to the impending impact.

If little sailboat says it saw big sailboat early on, they they have no explanation for why little sailboat failed to take evasive action. Being busy pooping your pants is an honest answer, but provides no legal exculpation.

If little sailboat says it didn't see the big sailboat until too late to take evasive action, well, that just incriminates little sailboat's failure to keep proper watch, and the photographs provide the proof that the failure of watch is a proximate cause of the accident.

So, big sailboat might be at fault. Little sailboat definitely is at fault.

But I reserve the right to change my opinion as more facts come out.
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Old 10-10-2008, 14:22   #103
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Quote:
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Lodesman, I could not improve on this answer other than to remind all of Rule 2.......

RULE 2
RESPONSIBILITY
(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master, or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.
(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.
Nearly the same as post 74, but soon we will find out WHO did the most neglecting to the rule of avoiding collision

Month after month in Lat38 there would be arguments that I am a sailboat. I have the right away. Most ignoring the fact that large boats have more restrictions in maneuvering, and that changes everything.
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Old 10-10-2008, 14:26   #104
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As most know if you are too close to a wall. The wall can actually suck you into the wall itself. A prime example is the south tower on the Golden Gate. It is known to eat boats. I am wondering if this same force would come into play with MF being nearly a wall, although a moving wall?
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Old 10-10-2008, 14:36   #105
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As most know if you are too close to a wall. The wall can actually suck you into the wall itself. A prime example is the south tower on the Golden Gate. It is known to eat boats. I am wondering if this same force would come into play with MF being nearly a wall, although a moving wall?
Little sailboat had forward momentum. It looks to me that it had about a boat length before impact in the first photograph of it, #2666.

Most fin keelers that are moving can make pretty radical directional changes within a boat length, particularly if turning off the wind. I'm not saying that after photograph 2666 little sailboat could have avoided impact. But I am saying we could have seen the attempt. It's not there.

No such turning is discernable.
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