Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 15-10-2008, 10:22   #151
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The boat lives at Fidalgo Island, PNW
Boat: 36' custom steel
Posts: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaoJones View Post

Here's the animated version of the still shots again so people can see if your hypothesis seems to match the images.

(IMG:http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...drewes_5-1.gif)
When I look at the animated version, it seems to me that MF is going slower than SB.

The animated version also reinforces my impression that SB took zero evasive action and failed to maintain a proper watch.

Look at the guy on the upper deck of MF run around to watch the impact. He looks to be having a cow. I'll bet he was yelling holy SB and MF!
__________________

__________________
John, sailing a custom 36' double-headed steel sloop--a 2001 derivation of a 1976 Ted Brewer design.
Hiracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2008, 10:42   #152
Eternal Member
 
imagine2frolic's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Las Brisas Panama AGAIN!
Boat: Simpson, Catamaran, 46ft. IMAGINE
Posts: 4,508
Images: 123
I'll bet he was yelling holy SB and MF!
__________________

I bet it sounded a lot like that!!!!!!!!!
__________________

__________________
SAILING is not always a slick magazine cover!
BORROWED..No single one of is as smart as all of us!
http://sailingwithcancer.blogspot.com/
imagine2frolic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2008, 15:02   #153
Provocateur & Raconteur
 
knottybuoyz's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Iroquois, Ontario
Boat: Bateau.com TW31 Modified
Posts: 3,583
Images: 87
Pic isn't that high a resolution but it looks like quite a skid mark down the side.

__________________
Yours Aye! Rick
~^~^~^^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~~^~^~~^~^~^^~~^~^
"It's not the boat "you built" until you've sworn at it, bled on it, sweated over it, cried beside it and then threatened to haul the POS outside and burn it!"
knottybuoyz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2008, 19:54   #154
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,633
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaoJones View Post
The pilot aboard Maltese Falcon last weekend was Captain Peter Fuller. He was donating his time and expertise without charge as a contribution to the Leukemia Cup Regatta. The pilot aboard the Cosco Busan was John Joseph Cota.
Thanks for clearing that up Tao. Interesting write-up on their training, but the reality is much less impressive: http://www.uscg.mil/nmc/checklists/M...EC-141_FCP.pdf
__________________
Lodesman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2008, 20:06   #155
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,633
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaoJones View Post
I see this as problematical, because for the smaller vessel to suddenly tack onto starboard, and augur into Falcon, there's just no way that the separation was ever anything like 200 feet. The time/date stamps on the images show that from the time of the first image, it was a full :20 before the vessels made contact, and it appears to me that they were no more than 40-50' apart in the first image.
This is the point I made from the outset. How is that flimsy?

I don't see how you figure they were 40-50' back in the first shot? SB is 40 feet long - in the first photo, the breadth of SB is greater than the width of the gap between the two vessels.

I'm also curious about the so-called time/date stamps on the photos - are these actual times or are they just sequential numbers put in by the camera's program?

Kevin
__________________
Lodesman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2008, 20:56   #156
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,633
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiracer View Post
When I look at the animated version, it seems to me that MF is going slower than SB.
The trouble with all of these calculations is that they are based on rough estimates of photos from which we don't know the perspective. If the photographer was at a fixed point, the calcs might make sense, but he was on a boat too - speeds and courses unknown. From the visual cues, we can see that sometime before the collision MF's tangled ensign is blown out to starboard, consistent with 16-17 kt wind and a low forward speed; at the time of the collision the ensign is hanging which suggests MF is travelling with the wind at near the speed of it.
__________________
Lodesman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2008, 23:26   #157
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
What I want to know is, was there one bullet or 3. And if you buy the lone shooter theory, what does that say for the magic bowsprit.

Interesting mental gymnastics.
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2008, 00:27   #158
Moderator
 
Paul Elliott's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,861
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
I'm also curious about the so-called time/date stamps on the photos - are these actual times or are they just sequential numbers put in by the camera's program?
Here is what Peter Lyons, the photographer who took the shots, has to say about the timestamps (from Sailing Anarchy):
------------
As far as timing, if you look at the photos on my site (lyonsimaging.com / go to galleries / go to regattas and events / go to 4th quarter / go to Maltese Falcon) each one has a filename under it. The numbers are a datestamp, timestamp, and a camera-assigned number. The timestamp is HHMMSS. So you can see the timing and calculate speed based on that.
------------
__________________
Paul Elliott, S/V VALIS - Pacific Seacraft 44 #16 - Friday Harbor, WA
www.sailvalis.com
Paul Elliott is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2008, 06:50   #159
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,633
Quote:
Originally Posted by knottybuoyz View Post
Pic isn't that high a resolution but it looks like quite a skid mark down the side.
Rick,

I think what we see in that picture is the light along the waterways and an accommodation ladder. There may be a skid mark, but am unsure at the given res.

Kevin
__________________
Lodesman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2008, 06:54   #160
Obsfucator, Second Class
 
dacust's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southeast USA.
Boat: 1982 Sea Ray SRV360
Posts: 1,743
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
What I want to know is, was there one bullet or 3. And if you buy the lone shooter theory, what does that say for the magic bowsprit.

Interesting mental gymnastics.
Dan,

OK, you got me. The question of 1 or 3 bullets does kinda throw a monkey wrench into things. But I thought my completely irrefutable scientific analysis of the facts (combined with the photo clearly showing Jack Ruby on the aft deck) would make the relevance of the magic bowsprit obvious.

Now I know for a fact there is a conspiracy, while I was typing that, Ruby was PhotoShopped from the photo, but you can still see the blur. The government sees every keystroke, but they're not very good with PhotoShop...

-dan
__________________
dacust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2008, 07:09   #161
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,633
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
Here is what Peter Lyons, the photographer who took the shots, has to say about the timestamps (from Sailing Anarchy):
------------
As far as timing, if you look at the photos on my site (lyonsimaging.com / go to galleries / go to regattas and events / go to 4th quarter / go to Maltese Falcon) each one has a filename under it. The numbers are a datestamp, timestamp, and a camera-assigned number. The timestamp is HHMMSS. So you can see the timing and calculate speed based on that.
------------
Thanks Paul. Did Lyons state what his equipment is? Are the timestamps assigned at shutter-push or when they're processed to the memory card? I don't know enough about professional cameras, but assume they have some form of buffer memory to allow a rapid succession of shots to be taken; it may explain the apparent speed changes based purely on the timestamps.
__________________
Lodesman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2008, 07:23   #162
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,633
Quote:
Originally Posted by dacust View Post
OK, I lied. I decided to take a stab at the speeds, after all.
  • 14:32:54 - First photo with SB.
  • 14:33:16 - Best I can tell, this is at impact.
dan,

I see the impact at 143312. I don't see how you figure SB was more than a boat-length away, and am curious how you came up with that? I figure she's 30 feet or even less in the first photo. To cover that in 18 seconds, she must have been doing 1 knot. Also SB travels from MF's bow down to the midpoint - so MF travelled 100-150 feet in the same time. So her speed by those calculations was 3-5 kts. This does not match with the photographer's estimate of MF's speed, nor with what the visual clues show, so you can see where I have my suspicions about the accuracy of the timestamps. Regardless, it is apparent to me that MF's speed is 3 to 5 times faster than SB's.

I'm not following the other forum or Perkin's blogs - does he state anywhere what speed they were going?

Kevin
__________________
Lodesman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2008, 08:18   #163
Registered User
 
svHyLyte's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tampa Bay area, USA
Boat: Beneteau First 42
Posts: 3,422
Images: 25
It seems to me some of you chaps have spent rather too much time watching CSI and Oliver Stone movies. The time sequence dissection may be entertaining for you but is rather focusing on the bark of the trees without seeing the forest. (Moreover, it seems rather more Inspector Clouseau than Sherlock Holmes)

Frankly, if Maltese Falcon where not a private yacht but simply another working ship on the Bay--perhaps one of the Army Corp. of Engineers ships, which are roughly the same size as Maltese Falcon--everyone would be commenting on what a couple of dummy's the guy's on the Nordic 40 were--and lucky to be alive.

What I see from the snaps is a 1200+ ton ship broad reaching at speed--evidenced by the heel angle and bow wave--being approached by a 40' yacht sailing to windward by two chaps that seem thoroughly unaware of the evolving situation. I suspect the helmsman of the yacht may not have realized the speed of approach of the ship and may well have assumed he could safely pass in front--while the chap with his back to the ship was likely completely unaware.

One can hold that the yacht had right of way and that, perhaps, Maltese Falcon should have dipped under her stern but then, 1200 tons at speed isn't going to respond particularly quickly so "dipping" was not an option. Had the helmsman of the yacht simply headed off slightly soon enough, he would have cleared Maltese Falcon's stern. He did not and once Maltese Falcon passed close ahead of him he was well within the ship's wind shadow. While he might still have born-off, I suspect, absent wind, he was surfed down into the hollow of Maltese Falcon's bow-wave--which pulled him closer to the ship--and then thrown to starboard and into Maltese Falcon by the rise of the ship's quarter-wave, the whole sequence having taken less time to occur than to describe.

Who is ultimately responsible? I think it's impossible for anyone not on the scene to make an informed judgment.

FWIW...

s/v HyLyte
__________________
"It is not so much for its beauty that the Sea makes a claim upon men's hearts, as for that subtle something, that quality of air, that emanation from the waves, that so wonderfully renews a weary spirit."
svHyLyte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2008, 09:12   #164
Registered User
 
swagman's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Winter land based UK New Forest. Summer months away. Making the transition from sail to power this year - scary stuff.
Boat: Super Van Craft 1320 Power Yacht
Posts: 2,175
Images: 10
Send a message via Skype™ to swagman
Top comment - HyLytes got my vote.
JOHN
__________________
Don't take life too seriously. No ones going to make it out alive......Go see our blog at http://www.sailblogs.com/member/yachtswagman/
swagman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2008, 09:24   #165
Moderator
 
Paul Elliott's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,861
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
I think what we see in that picture is the light along the waterways and an accommodation ladder. There may be a skid mark, but am unsure at the given res.
I sailed past MF on Tuesday and Saturday last week, and the big area on the starboard side looked like it was in the middle of the repair and repaint job. The original collision skidmark was much smaller, the obvious damage was to the big wooden rubrail. MF had been repairing the damage since the collision.

As for the details of the camera and timestamp, sorry, I don't know. By the way, Peter Lyons took some photos of VALIS back in June as we were sailing under the Golden Gate Bridge and out to sea. I am amazed at how good he made us look! (Lyons Imaging :: Our Galleries- powered by SmugMug)
__________________

__________________
Paul Elliott, S/V VALIS - Pacific Seacraft 44 #16 - Friday Harbor, WA
www.sailvalis.com
Paul Elliott is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hello from Pelagius aka David Bamber, UK Pelagius Meets & Greets 3 04-01-2008 21:24
Seeking David Tunick aboard NIGHTWATCH Euro Cruiser General Sailing Forum 0 08-05-2006 12:12
Wanted - Seeking David Tunick aboard NIGHTWATCH Euro Cruiser Crew Archives 0 08-05-2006 12:11



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:05.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.