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Old 22-10-2008, 00:25   #16
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More running backstay questions...

I have running backstays on Boracay(see pic). They are a menace most of the time, but once the mast was rigged it's very hard to change.

They are needed when there is a staysail, and I would add that they are also needed when ever the main is not up. I notice increased vibration in the backstay then. Not much tension is needed to smooth everything out.

I have nowhere to put them when I move them forward. I'm assuming "U" bolts near the base of the aft shouds should do the trick. Any other suggestions?

The other question is about how to tension them. The old method of a "Highfield Lever" would work fine on a racing yacht but on a cruising boat it's just another two lumps of metal to trip over. I'm currently thinking of using blocks and cleats as in the mainsheet. Any comments or suggestions.
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Old 22-10-2008, 01:24   #17
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My runners have blocks with a jammer as per the main sheet, works OK except there is quite a bit of slack to coil up out of the way when there not in use. For me a well thought out highfield lever set up would be preferable though.
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Old 22-10-2008, 05:22   #18
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Hi Alan
I have a 39ft Lanranos Center cockpit cutter, I bet the hulls are very close. I had the same problems you mentioned. I changed the knot as suggested to something like a larkshead. This helped a lot, but I finnally just removed the inner stay and fastned it to the toe rail. I only use it for offshore passages as the stay and reefed main work well together. Most of the time the staysail didn't help enough for the hassel of tacking and running backs. I would love to put it on a furler then I would play with it a lot more. I would would love to find out more about your boat, I haven't met any monohall Lavranos owners in 7 yrs with this boat.
Brad
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Old 22-10-2008, 06:23   #19
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Boracay, on my last boat I used a Highfield Lever for the stay and then two fiddle blocks, one with a clam cleat and snap shackle for the runners. It has the advantage of allowing you to shorten the runners substantially so that when not in use, you are able to fasten them down tightly at a convenient spot. They are also lighter (and less dangerous in a seaway) than the Highfield.

There are also small, curved stainless steel troughs with an open seem at the top that are designed to be attached to the mast. I used one of these so that the detachable forestay was led down the front of the mast and then forward to a ubolt on the deck in front of the mast. Did a good job of keeping the foredeck clear.

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Old 22-10-2008, 06:50   #20
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Now I get it, Thanks.
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Old 22-10-2008, 06:54   #21
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I am sure someone here much more knowledgeable of sails could say it better but I believe your problem is that you are trying to use a genoa on cutter rig.

You need to switch your headsail to Yankee cut jib. The sail will be smaller and the the clew will be much higher but it will pull past the staysail with no problem regardless of what knot you use.

I think if you are trying to backwind and use other methods of getting the genoa to pass without a hangup you are going to end up with a lot of slack line flying around potentially grabbing anything it can.

My stays are 3 feet apart or less and I have a stupid big knot on the jib because one of my sons insisted on helping and I didn't allow myself to say no.

The genoa isn't made to pull through a another stay without a hangup.
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Old 22-10-2008, 07:22   #22
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Valid point Silent Option, albeit so many modern cutter rigs no longer have a truly high-cut headsail. Indeed, boats using the 'Solent rig' (with detachable inner stay) typically use normal headsails, including 110 or 120 genoas, albeit they also typically reserve the inner stay only for heavy conditions.

Obviously the smaller the headsail the easier it will be to tack, although I am not sure that raising the clew a few feet will make that much of a difference - after all, the clew and sheet knot(s) are getting caught up on the staysail stay and the amount of friction (and distance between them) should remain pretty constant regardless of the height of the clew. Having said that, the cut of a traditional Yankee will leave much less sail to pull around the stay.

It strikes me that by going to a traditional cutter rig (with yankee), what one gains in tacking ability one loses in both sail area and efficiency to windward. If you want the advantages of a larger headsail in sailing to windward, especially in light air, then you will also have to backwind the jib (and in really light air, occasionally walk it) in order to tack. If your priorities are for ease of handling, then recutting the sail from say a 110 or 120 % Genoa to a Yankee could be the way to go.

Brad

PS I am assuming that the headsail is not a 'deck hugger'. If the clew of the headsail actually makes contact with the Highfield lever or turnbuckle of the staysail stay, then obviously it needs to be cut higher.
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Old 22-10-2008, 07:34   #23
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No argument about lost sail area but I don't have a solent rig. Its just the way my boat is set up, old fashioned as it may be but it works fine.

Given a choice I wouldn't trade sail area for less hassle when I tacked.
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Old 23-10-2008, 13:19   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmartinsen View Post
Hi Alan
I have a 39ft Lanranos Center cockpit cutter, I bet the hulls are very close. I had the same problems you mentioned. I changed the knot as suggested to something like a larkshead. This helped a lot, but I finnally just removed the inner stay and fastned it to the toe rail. I only use it for offshore passages as the stay and reefed main work well together. Most of the time the staysail didn't help enough for the hassel of tacking and running backs. I would love to put it on a furler then I would play with it a lot more. I would would love to find out more about your boat, I haven't met any monohall Lavranos owners in 7 yrs with this boat.
Brad
Hi Brad Glad to hear of another Lavranos cutter - my vessel was built in Cape town and fitted in Durban by Glyn Buckle who used to be an associate of Angelo Lavranos who now lives in New Zealand. Before I purcahsed her I contacted the designer and obatined all the relevent performance statistics. The vessel was launched in Dec 2007 and I am extremely pleased with her performance. Now with all the advice on the stay sail I tend to agree with your view about a second roller furling option. The centre cockpit gives one such a comfortable sail being the pivot point. She points very close to the wind 25deg and is very responsive - the boat builder fitted her with a ruder that is 6" wider then design - all with the designers approval. She seems to sail most efficently at between 6 and 8 kts. Anything specific you would like to know send me an email Regards Alan
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Old 23-10-2008, 16:25   #25
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So how much does a high-cut Yankee with a full size staysail cost you in terms of performance to windward as opposed to a 120 or 130 percent genoa and no staysail?

(I'm sure that the double headsail does cost you downwind in light air, but that's a separate issue.)
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Old 23-10-2008, 17:48   #26
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I think the high cut Yankee and a full deck sweeping staysail is more efficient to windward in a good sea.
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JohnL
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Old 24-10-2008, 05:21   #27
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Ok , is it really a cutter or a cutter rigged sloop? I've been told my is the ladder.
I'm not a maritime lawyer but I'm sure someone here will know the difference. Ideally, I would like a bigger headsail and a removable innerstay on a furler(if possible). Try flying an asy.spinaker deep downwind with staysail on other side, it channels the wind onto the spin. Alan I'll send you an email with some questions,btw my boat was built in 83. check out pic @ cdrift
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Old 24-10-2008, 07:25   #28
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The mast on a Sloop is located forward of midship, whereas Cutter’s mast is at about midship.
A Sloop-Rigged Cutter (sometimes called a “Slutter”) has the forward mast placement of the Sloop, along with the double headsail (jib & staysail) of the Cutter.
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Old 24-10-2008, 09:27   #29
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I use my stay sail with any wind before the beam. Otherwise it blankets the headsail. The other time I use it is when it's blowing like snot, and the headsail is rolled up.
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Old 14-11-2008, 08:10   #30
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We back the jib in the light air when tacking, in more wind there is no need. We use highfield levers on the runners, with no fuss or muss. Certainly our boat is a cruiser NOT a racer. When running the staysail is useful, the jib less so, unless we change her to a larger sail. We never bother with that since the main, mizzen and stay easily take her hull speed when off the wind. It took us a little time to learn some the fine tuning on Witchcraft, in the end it was worth it, and we find her a joy out on the water.
Oh since we have a mizzen the main has no back stay, so the running back stays counter the effect of the forestays which are six feet apart. Occaisionally we have to go forward because something has caught... generally in light air.
Have fun with your boat, and try lots of different things, you will find the best approach for your boat.
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