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Old 25-07-2012, 20:00   #211
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

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Cherry picking a few small relatively well off, long established, countries with homogenous populations, high education, and small minority underclasses does not mean that this model can or will work anywhere else.

Yes Foolishsailor...please don't confuse us with the facts...
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Old 25-07-2012, 20:09   #212
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

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Cherry picking a few small relatively well off, long established, countries with homogenous populations, high education, and small minority underclasses does not mean that this model can or will work anywhere else. If I recall correctly they are all monarchies as well - but likely no one really thinks that this is a good model either.

Typically never mentioned is that the wealthy people in the USA pay most of the taxes that keep the government running and provide transfer payments to those at the bottom. These transfer payments like food stamps, the earned income tax payments, free medical care, free schooling, and other kinds of help (especially 'in kind' help) are not typically counted when averaging incomes for the purposes of proving how bad the USA is. The principal in this case 'Jay' is apparently being supported by just such a transfer payment ($800/mo, perhaps from Social security?). He nevertheless 'has' a yacht, a large dog to support, and apparently eats well (steak being mentioned). The fact that he does not have a large income is apparently not impacting his chosen lifestyle that much. Which is not to say that more money would not improve things - but for someone with 'nothing' he seems to be doing OK.
Actually Bruce, what FS wrote, and what you quoted, is a collection of facts -- real data which anyone can confirm. In fact, FS's list could easily be extended. There are currently 13 countries which have higher per-capita income (gross domestic product per capita). And on the other measures mentioned by FS: quality of life, lowest unemployment, longest lifespans, and healthiest populations; the US scores even worse as compared to virtually every developed nation.

Your point about the wealthy paying most of the US taxes is also true, but you fail to mention that this is b/c the wealthy now take in most of the wealth and income generated in your country. The reality is, the wealthy in both our countries are now paying, proportionally, a much smaller share of taxes than anytime in the past 50 years.

I add this comment with trepidation b/c of the off-tangent nature of the post. But it is hard to stay quiet when myth is promulgated as fact.
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Old 25-07-2012, 21:02   #213
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

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This may appear to be foolish,If the man was in a house on shore and it caught fire I would hope that people would come help put the fire out...what is the differance? I hope someone can help put out this fire,as this man is going to lose his home...DVC

Once more I am going to protest the notion that no one has helped this man.

By the way, two years ago the home of a local man burned down. Five people in the community immediately offered him their rental property to live in, rent free. Three of them had never met him.
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Old 25-07-2012, 21:03   #214
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

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Ok...your female...big deal! Can't tolerate disagreement. Sure I can. What gets me is how monotonous it is to see post after post on multiple pages so you can be right about something. Do you want to be right...or do you want to be happy? After a few post my eyes just glazed over it and continued on to view other opinions. So go grind your axe on someone else.
I want to see the guys boat saved too and stand by the opinion that it matters not of a persons wealth, status or even moral conduct. A person in need is a person in need.

In this case I am both right and happy, and once again this has gotten personal.

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Old 25-07-2012, 21:08   #215
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

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I first saw the boat on the beach when we anchored for the fourth of July fireworks...

... If he does call, I'll be counting on you guys that can to lend a hand.

And Cup, pm me here or on the other site about your visit to Tampa if you haven't lined up a sail yet.
Get that washing machine off before you lay her over!
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Old 25-07-2012, 21:32   #216
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

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Get that washing machine off before you lay her over!
And the dog dookie!..DVC
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Old 25-07-2012, 22:00   #217
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

OK Guy's and Gal's or to those it may matter to,,i am removing the size 12 from my mouth and saying lets all play nice.

Time to re-evaluate our positions and act like the grand people we are, i think we can all agree that we wish for a favorable outcome.

After what i have read so far, i can only feel so foolish.
And i can only pray for the poor dog as its the only innocent in all of this.

So lets go back to sniping at the fish instead of at each other!!
Fair enough????
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Old 26-07-2012, 03:52   #218
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

Thanks to Knothead for the up to date info, and thanks to Nemo 55 for some sanity. I was wondering if Knothead had determined the approximate lenth and age of the boat. From the pic's it looks like 40ish but it is hard to tell. I would also hope that if Capt. Jay, takes you up on your offer, and you do orginize an effert you will let all of us know. I am 3 hours away with some resources to bring so please keep us posted.
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Old 26-07-2012, 04:30   #219
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Gonna add my 2 cents. Years ago u helped a friend off and on who had a salvage company. We we're hired to remove derelict boats in Tarpon. One was a smaller sailboat in a similar situation. It took umpteen hours of water jetting, digging, lift bagging, and pulling cursing etc to get her 3 ft keel out of the sand. And this was a boat that had water around it. Getting free if its own suction was the hardest part. I wish you luck but hate ti think. You get it free. Tow him to deeper water. He's still probably dumping waste. He will still probably allow the boat to break free again and who knows where it ends up probably sunk and a nav hazard especially if there is a hurricane. Sounds like he has friends may've he can live w them.
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Old 26-07-2012, 06:09   #220
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

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Gonna add my 2 cents. Years ago u helped a friend off and on who had a salvage company. We we're hired to remove derelict boats in Tarpon. One was a smaller sailboat in a similar situation. It took umpteen hours of water jetting, digging, lift bagging, and pulling cursing etc to get her 3 ft keel out of the sand. And this was a boat that had water around it. Getting free if its own suction was the hardest part. I wish you luck but hate ti think. You get it free. Tow him to deeper water. He's still probably dumping waste. He will still probably allow the boat to break free again and who knows where it ends up probably sunk and a nav hazard especially if there is a hurricane. Sounds like he has friends may've he can live w them.

That is the opinion of the great majority of people who live in the area at this time. The guy is living in filth and apparently can't cope in a number of ways. Those difficulties impact the community since he has chosen to anchor right off the swimming beach. And, by the way, the circulation is not the best at that beach. Often the smell is pretty bad at low tide. I don't mean a smell of sewage -- that funky smell you can get in the corners of marinas where the water circulation is poor. Personally I wouldn't swim there if we didn't have this problem off its shore, but people -- especially children -- do.

What I have railed against here were the many negative assumptions made here that no one has tried to help.

Example: It appears that one person here has the means, tools, skills, etc. to help this fellow, but given his report of his visit to the boat, I wouldn't blame him for declining to help. Doncha think the other people who have tried to help him have seen these things too? And yet there is no gossip in town about the dog poop. You'd think that sort of thing would race through a small town.

I tried to bring up the report from the Gulfport Gabber, the town's small paper. The last June issue included coverage about the storm, but that archival page would not load. In any case, people aren't gossiping about it the way one might think.

If anyone cares to look at my posts, all I have tried to do is to sift out the inaccurate assumptions and (repeatedly) defend the notion that has appeared here over and over that no one has tried to help. As we saw, when visited the boat owner was not there but others were there, presumably helping him.

This has been a problem boat for some time. It may be that this man is a hoarder and incapable of cleaning his mess up himself. I don't know, but most people are smart enough to know a problem when it stares them in the face (covered with dog poop). And yet I have not heard such comments from local sailors. They have largely changed their minds -- after trying to help, by the way. They're all saying the things quoted above, especially the point about another big storm coming in. During Debby I had debris by my boat from a decrepit dock that was torn down a year ago. Before it was torn down I had more and bigger debris from that private dock.

This is a real issue, and I got skewered because I didn't say what everyone else wanted to hear. This boat really is a great big problem. Free it and it's an even bigger problem.
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Old 26-07-2012, 08:11   #221
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

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Knothead--

In terms of breaking this guys keel free, it might be worth a visit to the local Fire Station. A pumper truck and a couple of hose nozzels at full blast will definately clear a whole lott'a sand away from a yacht's keel/rudder in very short order and as reported, the yacht is certainly within hose reach of the shore. I saw this methodology put into practice a l-o-n-g time ago whan a local luminaries' yacht went up on the beach in Santa Barbara. I don't think it took the Fire Department an hour to break his keel out of the sand and another hour for a tug to drag her sideways into deep water little worse for wear (or where for that matter). The local Fire Station was quite happy to help there and, considering the temperatures here, is likely to be no less willing here (a "swim call", eh?).

FWIW...
An excellent suggestion. Everyone's ideas are welcome. Thanks. As the situation stands now, I have a call into the writer of the newspaper article in the Times and expect to hear from her today. I will explain that the ball is in Jay's court now but if he chooses to accept my help, (and my conditions), then a follow up article would be helpful in garnering community support. I have no doubt that this boat can be refloated. It will take a lot of hands, a lot of anchors, a bunch of boats, a few good ideas like the one above and some hard work. But the boat will come off the beach. I'm not willing to debate the right or wrong of helping someone like this, but it's my hope that an experience like this and some tough love after the recovery might serve to get Jay to strive to become a better sailor. And at least as importantly, a more responsible dog owner. Probably not, but that's my hope. I will continue to keep those interested updated on any development via this thread. As I mentioned, the ball is in Jay's court now and I know that I came on pretty strong with the Dave fellow, but I'm not known for sugarcoating the truth and what I said, Jay needed to hear. If Jay want's to put his hurt feelings aside, listen and cooperate with people that can help him, we'll get his boat off. If he doesn't, that's his choice. Steve edit; sorry for the lack of paragraph breaks. I downloaded some sort of script blocker and now everything I write comes out like this.
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Old 26-07-2012, 08:23   #222
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

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An excellent suggestion. Everyone's ideas are welcome. Thanks. As the situation stands now, I have a call into the writer of the newspaper article in the Times and expect to hear from her today. I will explain that the ball is in Jay's court now but if he chooses to accept my help, (and my conditions), then a follow up article would be helpful in garnering community support. I have no doubt that this boat can be refloated. It will take a lot of hands, a lot of anchors, a bunch of boats, a few good ideas like the one above and some hard work. But the boat will come off the beach. I'm not willing to debate the right or wrong of helping someone like this, but it's my hope that an experience like this and some tough love after the recovery might serve to get Jay to strive to become a better sailor. And at least as importantly, a more responsible dog owner. Probably not, but that's my hope. I will continue to keep those interested updated on any development via this thread. As I mentioned, the ball is in Jay's court now and I know that I came on pretty strong with the Dave fellow, but I'm not known for sugarcoating the truth and what I said, Jay needed to hear. If Jay want's to put his hurt feelings aside, listen and cooperate with people that can help him, we'll get his boat off. If he doesn't, that's his choice. Steve edit; sorry for the lack of paragraph breaks. I downloaded some sort of script blocker and now everything I write comes out like this.

I applaud what you have done. You have truly helped everyone here get the "whole picture." I have serious doubts about whether the fire department will be willing to do what you suggest. Among other things, it might create a deep hole close to shore where small children are accustomed to wading safely. How would that hole get filled in afterwards? The city will take in the whole picture, including effects on the beach, and not just the goal of refloating the boat.

One unintended result may be that the dog is removed from the boat, and from the custody of its owner. Whether that's good or bad, I don't know, but I bet it isn't what Jay wants.
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Old 26-07-2012, 08:23   #223
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

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I first saw the boat on the beach when we anchored for the fourth of July fireworks. Gulfport puts on a great show. A boat on the beach after a blow isn't an unusual sight around here but it was the first one I've seen on the swimming beach.
I didn't think much about it after that until I read the newspaper story. I've been debating since then as to whether or not to get involved.
Well, today, after reading this thread at the shop. I stopped by on my way home from work and waded out to the boat. I got the hem of my shorts wet, but was able to walk up to the side and knock.
As soon as I rapped on the topsides, voices from shore started yelling "he's not aboard". A moment later a head popped up in the companionway.
I said. "you're not Jay". He said he was Dave. Or maybe Dan. I can't remember now. Jay was off on an errand and I had just missed him it seems.
Anyway. I introduced myself and told Dave that I wanted to ascertain what the make of boat the 'Promise' is. He didn't know. So I asked for permission to come aboard to check a few things out. Dave said that was fine. I still don't know what make that boat is. But I'm pretty sure it's a full keel, cutaway forefoot boat. I'm still a little skeptical about the seven foot draft but who knows.
There wasn't anything on the transom that id'ed the boat.
Has it been mentioned anywhere? I haven't seen it if so.

When I first stepped aboard, carefully avoiding the piles of dog poop, I noticed that the cockpit. Which is quite large was filled with stuff. There was indeed a washing machine and two generators on deck. One was running. The deck is fairly covered with dog **** and the boat is terribly neglected.
The rigging is suspect, but heavy. The mast seems solid but takes a sharp bend port above the spreaders. I believe this could be corrected with a little tuning.
There were two anchors deployed. Both rodes were slack. The boat was standing as vertical as if she were floating.
The dog was below. Barking.
Good dog.

I told Dave, as I handed him my business card, to please tell "Capt'n Jay" That he wasn't doing himself any favors. I told him to say that sailors will come to the aid of other sailors willingly. But are a little less enthusiastic about helping a lubber with no sense of seamanship.
I told him to tell Jay that it was inexcusable to have a cockpit full of garbage, dogs and generators and crap all over a boat that should be lightened and laying on it's side with as many lines and anchors as he could beg borrow or steal kedging with all their might.

I told Dave to tell Jay that if he wanted my help, I would get his boat off. According to Dave, the deadline is August 8.
I told him that the only way I would help him is if he would listen to me and let me do things my way.

I doubt that Jay is going to call me. But if he does, I'll help him. I have a lot of tackle myself and I have some contacts in the area. I think it's very doable. It's too bad that the effort hasn't been underway since the grounding. But that's what a real sailor would have done. Jay isn't a sailor. I don't give a damn if he has a piece of paper saying he is. One look at his boat will tell you all you need to know.

I'm a little torn, but the way I look at it is this. Jay has to live somewhere. Is it serving society to chop up his boat and put him on the street? Or is it better to get his boat off the beach and let him get on with his life with a roof over his head. Gulfport will have to foot the bill for the demolition and hauling. They would probably be money ahead to lend some equipment and hands to help get the boat off.

I don't fool myself that I'm helping a fellow sailor. Just seems to be "the lesser of two evils kind of thing".
The boat is nearly a derelict. Perhaps Jay is too. Not for me to judge. But if you get Jay and his boat off the water, there will be another around the corner.
The way the economy is these days, I keep thinking "There but for the grace of God go I".

If he does call, I'll be counting on you guys that can to lend a hand.

And Cup, pm me here or on the other site about your visit to Tampa if you haven't lined up a sail yet.
The boat looks like a Coronado 45. Here is a listing for one out west. They both seem to have companionways offset to the port and this one has the draft listed at 7 feet. Does it look similar?

1976 Coronado Coronado 45 sailboat for sale in California
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Old 26-07-2012, 08:32   #224
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

We are good people here, positive, helpful, with a can-do attitude. We all wish the good outcome for these kind of events. We FEEL for this man. But feelings are not facts and feelings must be vetted with information. Rakuflames is actually on the scene. Captain Jay's boat is a wreck. Even the original title for the video is misleading.
" Cruiser washed up on Beach", does not represent the reality of the situation. There would be a different reaction if the original title of the video was "Squatters derelict grounded boat fouls local swimming beach". Imagine how happy you'd be if you woke up to Cap'n Jays boat banging against the side of your $245,000 Mason at three A.M.
Floating his boat is no fix.
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Old 26-07-2012, 08:35   #225
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

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We are good people here, positive, helpful, with a can-do attitude. We all wish the good outcome for these kind of events. We FEEL for this man. But feelings are not facts and feelings must be vetted with information. Rakuflames is actually on the scene. Captain Jay's boat is a wreak. Even the original title for the video is misleading.
" Cruiser washed up on Beach", does not represent the reality of the situation. There would be a different reaction if the original title of the video was "Squatters derelict grounded boat fouls local swimming beach". Imagine how happy you'd be if you woke up to Cap'n Jays boat banging against the side of your $245,000 Mason at three A.M.
Floating his boat is no fix.

Thank you....

Everyone complains about anchoring restrictions in Florida becoming more stringent. Anchoring bans being created and all, yet there is a outpouring of support here to refloat a derelict, one of those decrepit boats that causes the problems.
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