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Old 24-07-2012, 22:02   #181
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

Not at all, i happen to enjoy the point and counterpoint of good debate, i don't however,, like it when another less fortunate soul gets dumped on.

And oh yeah,,am i supposed to know from your Login name that your female (not that i give a crap) and if you want to take my comments personally go right ahead and dig in,,,even though they where not directed at you or you alone,Only those who would **** on another for being less than they are.
And the only time i would put someone on filter is if they where being a total ass to me personally,,and i don't think we are there yet do you???

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
OHHHH you don't like being disagreed with, do you. There probably isn't a boater in the area who wants him at anchor again, so who is going to give him an anchor? I've suggested here several times that people help make him a mooring. BTW I'm female, and the only "stiffy" I have is the stick on my boat.

Yeah, I defend capitalism when compared to anything else. I don't require perfection in order to be free. It's part of what makes us free. I don't throw the baby out with the bath water (or the crooked bankers).

Sorry if you don't like my opinions. If you don't, bite me -- and then put me on filter (big cheesy, feminine smile).
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Old 25-07-2012, 04:35   #182
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

Nemo55 asked "how the hell can anyone blindly defend Capitalism?" ==> Perhaps because it is the only thing that enables most people to build a degree of wealth. Allowing people to profit from their work and ideas is the basis of capitalism and is the engine that creates enough wealth for socialist systems to want to redistribute that wealth. The main problem with the current implementation of capitalism is that no one has been able to figure out how to keep the capitalist institutions from getting too big. The problem is size, not the theory. If the economy could be run with more but smaller companies, the 'too big to fail' problem would go away since the company could then be allowed to fail. When people know that the company can fail they tend to do better 'due diligence' when investing - and investors need to be more proactive in challenging management. At least in capitalist systems, challenging the bureaucracy generally doesn't get one seriously dead as tends to happen in state run companies where the business and political elite are the same people and the coercive power of the state is available to keep the workers under control.
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Old 25-07-2012, 06:55   #183
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Actually Social Democracies or "nordic socialism" generate the highest per captia wealth in the world. They also generate the highest quality of life, lowest unemployment, longest lifespans, and healthiest populations.

See: Denmark, sweden, norway etc...

All that in places most of us would consider the weather to shitty to live in...

What unregulated capitalism, which is what exists in the US creates is a small percentage of people with extreme wealth.

The US has the largest gap between classes in the western world.
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Old 25-07-2012, 07:04   #184
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
I am not surprised and expected that there would be assistance of some kind. Thanks for keeping us in the loop on this. Hopefully his situation is resolved by the time I get down there in the second week of August.

Please continue letting us know any updates.

I will. As I said I have been out of town, but will be down there in a little bit and also visiting with some of the people who have tried to help the guy save his boat, and I'll have more current information.

I really feel for the guy. I don't care whether he was given the boat or not. Those around here who know him say he has been working on improving the boat as he can. But I sincerely hope that part of the help he will receive will be building a good mooring. I think they also need ongoing support for him, because at his age he may not be up to monitoring its condition.
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Old 25-07-2012, 07:10   #185
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

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That is what I think too. Even using air compressors with pointed metal tubes that could be pushed into the sand to turn it into silt would move the sand. Once it is over on it's side, tie some air bags to the keel and deck to float it. Or assist in dragging it.

You just wouldn't want to be under the boat when it starts to tip.
Beach is shallow for a long distance. In fact, all of Boca Ciega Bay is shallow. We really had to hunt to find a place 11' deep (we wanted 12 but that was only in channels) to take my rudder out and replace it. Many places are simply too shallow for that boat, even at high tide. it's not a good boat in that regard for its environs.

In other words, it would be a LONG drag.

I want to emphasize again that this kind of brainstorming IS going on, by a lot of local experienced sailors and other mariners. The city is continuing to try to find a solution. No one wants this to end with the guy's boat being cut up for salvage on the beach.

One of the big problems is that the things most likely to work inexpensively have been tried, leaving only more expensive solutions. If you saw the fundraising website, you know the results haven't exactly been dazzling, and the boat owner just doesn't have the resources. It isn't a wealthy town and a local "benefactor" is unlikely to appear.
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Old 25-07-2012, 07:13   #186
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

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...amen brother these two guys need to get a room!
Um... I'm female, and not to be rude, but ... no thanks.

It does amaze me when other people can't tolerate disagreements that don't even directly involve them. I viewed it, until the last post, as someone playing Devil's Advocate. While it can be irritating, it can also lead to productive ideas. That's why I'm so hot on this -- I want to see the guy's boat saved, not cut up. But I know it can't stay there, either.
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Old 25-07-2012, 07:14   #187
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

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Originally Posted by Nemo55 View Post
Not at all, i happen to enjoy the point and counterpoint of good debate, i don't however,, like it when another less fortunate soul gets dumped on.

And oh yeah,,am i supposed to know from your Login name that your female (not that i give a crap) and if you want to take my comments personally go right ahead and dig in,,,even though they where not directed at you or you alone,Only those who would **** on another for being less than they are.
And the only time i would put someone on filter is if they where being a total ass to me personally,,and i don't think we are there yet do you???

No, you aren't supposed to know by magic I'm female. But clearly it was time to point it out to you.

Yeah, when you get personal, I will take it personally. I will also push back. If you don't like that you can bite me too.
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Old 25-07-2012, 07:15   #188
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

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Originally Posted by callmecrazy View Post
Wouldn't the help of a few donated anchors prevent this from happening? And subsequently, lay the boat on it's side after the tide goes out (with a bit of effort in adverse conditions), resulting in getting it afloat after the (not so terrible) storm surge?


There's a saying.....a horse to water but can't make it drink......sure, give the guy a few anchors and some chain, but where does it stop?!?! This is what leads to more of this!!
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Old 25-07-2012, 07:16   #189
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

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Nemo55 asked "how the hell can anyone blindly defend Capitalism?" ==> Perhaps because it is the only thing that enables most people to build a degree of wealth. Allowing people to profit from their work and ideas is the basis of capitalism and is the engine that creates enough wealth for socialist systems to want to redistribute that wealth. The main problem with the current implementation of capitalism is that no one has been able to figure out how to keep the capitalist institutions from getting too big. The problem is size, not the theory. If the economy could be run with more but smaller companies, the 'too big to fail' problem would go away since the company could then be allowed to fail. When people know that the company can fail they tend to do better 'due diligence' when investing - and investors need to be more proactive in challenging management. At least in capitalist systems, challenging the bureaucracy generally doesn't get one seriously dead as tends to happen in state run companies where the business and political elite are the same people and the coercive power of the state is available to keep the workers under control.
Thank you.

I think it's easy right now to rail against capitalism when the pendulum swings too far. Didn't look too good at the time of the other robber barons we had around the turn of the 20th century, either ...
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Old 25-07-2012, 08:35   #190
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

*Rakuflames, as to taking it personal,,not entirely sure what you are rankled about,,as to you pointing out that your a woman,,not entirely sure what i need to take from that either,except maybe the reference to the stiffy,(sorry),and lastly,,,you sure like the getting bitten part don't you,haha??? and i'll leave that one alone thank you.
As to disagreeing,,
Thank god they haven't taken freedom of speech away totally,

*Bruce626,, Thank you!,,and *Foolishsailor,,Thank you!,,and *Rakuflames,Thank you!,,typed words don't always do justice to ones intended flavor,,we are after all, on the same side i think.

If by donating to the mans cause i find that i have erred, so be it, because it wont be the first time,,nor will it be the last.
I hope the fellow(whatever his faults)gets his boat back,although after reading some of the "Clarification's posted about this guy's true nature" he may just do it all over again.
Well,,,that,, again is for a different time.
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Old 25-07-2012, 09:56   #191
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

I've been down to the beach. The boat is about 10 ft from the high water line on the beach and is in less than 1' of water. The entire keel below the hull is completely dug into the sand, also the rudder. It is actually far worse than we originally thought.

The only good thing about his situation is that he is not heeled over -- maybe a degree or two, but he's not at any kind of steep heel at all. There is a generator running on the boat.

I cannot imagine how that boat can be gotten out of there, and local comment is that all the standard remedies have been tried (kedging, etc.) As earlier pointed out, the boat does not have an operating engine, so it cannot help in its own extraction.

I think the boat is gone.
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Old 25-07-2012, 10:23   #192
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

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rognvald :

Point taken. I should not have shot my mouth off with inappropriate generalities. It seems that commenting upon this situation is fraught with the possibility of appearing foolish, simply because we have not been properly informed of the facts.

Poor judgment always follows uninformed deliberation.

Regards Chris.
This may appear to be foolish,If the man was in a house on shore and it caught fire I would hope that people would come help put the fire out...what is the differance? I hope someone can help put out this fire,as this man is going to lose his home...DVC
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Old 25-07-2012, 10:30   #193
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

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Nemo55 asked "how the hell can anyone blindly defend Capitalism?" ==> Perhaps because it is the only thing that enables most people to build a degree of wealth. Allowing people to profit from their work and ideas is the basis of capitalism and is the engine that creates enough wealth for socialist systems to want to redistribute that wealth. The main problem with the current implementation of capitalism is that no one has been able to figure out how to keep the capitalist institutions from getting too big. The problem is size, not the theory. If the economy could be run with more but smaller companies, the 'too big to fail' problem would go away since the company could then be allowed to fail. When people know that the company can fail they tend to do better 'due diligence' when investing - and investors need to be more proactive in challenging management. At least in capitalist systems, challenging the bureaucracy generally doesn't get one seriously dead as tends to happen in state run companies where the business and political elite are the same people and the coercive power of the state is available to keep the workers under control.
This is so true!Long live free enterprise!
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Old 25-07-2012, 10:48   #194
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

Uncontrolled free enterprise equals greed, and deprivation for those most ill equipped to deal with it.

Sometimes we try to help with the best of intentions, but it's like giving money to a street person,you have no control over what they are going to do with it.
The donation page is being run by someone other than Cpt Jay, so hopefully monies donated can help secure a place to sleep for the guy if and when the city decides to remove him.
Sometimes i think i only remove one foot in order to jam the other one in,,Mia Copa for the feathers ruffled.
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Old 25-07-2012, 11:08   #195
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Re: Cruisers yacht stuck on Gulfport beach in 4 feet of sand

I agree with much of what Nemo writes. American Capitalism has been at it's best not only in times of flourishing small business development but when there is a balance between making money and the "greater good" of a society at large and at it's worst where greed is allowed to flourish at the cost of a society's "health". A balance between a stagnant, overly bureaucratic gov't and a purely greed driven free-for all. We have always been engaged in finding this balance (remember the "roaring twenties", the Great Depression that followed but then in the 50's and 60's The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit when it was feared that a man traded his soul to fit lockstep with corporate culture?)and will always be. The great value of compromise in these competeing interests is in being able to establish, and for as long as possible maintain that balance.
All things in moderation and to paraphase the art historian Kenneth Clark, a society that no longer values art (read: an endeavour w/o "pratical" monetary application, eg painting, playing music, going sailing) is a society out of balance and in decline.
When greed holds a society captive and wealth disparity grows people become less free to chose their own course in life. I am so glad for what some people might consider the "socialist" program of Social Security INSURANCE because it has allowed me to contribute to society as an artist and freed me from the enslavement to monetary concerns... something I'm lousy at and only care for inso much as it allows me to eat, keep a roof over my head and follow a different path
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