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Old 24-01-2012, 02:40   #736
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

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Originally Posted by MacG View Post
The CC group as you call them is the very opposite from what we are: inactive in everything they are just bystanders. Users of a facility which is far astern of any real "seafeeling". Freed from any responsibility save good behaviour they use the services offered by a number of companies.
That' s a world of difference. No more Nicholas Montsarrat's scenarios but Disneylike stupidities.

All they can do is gossip. Cruising that way is not for the rich but for the poor.
Leave them at their own level.
I think that this is a rather unkind comment.

To feed my sea addiction when I was between boats, I took a number of cruise ship cruises, and loved them all, met very interesting people, breathed the sea air, visited interesting places, read a lot of books, came back tanned, rested, and happy. I would definitely do it again if my every free moment were not devoted to my own boat.

Incidentally, one of them was on Costa, and it was possibly the best of the lot. We went to Cartagena and some other really interesting places, including some fairly offbeat ports, and the passengers were mostly Europeans, and even more interesting than usual. It was an excellent cruise -- and it takes a mind-boggling degree of organization to house, feed and entertain a couple of thousand people to very high standards of quality.

Cruising on a cruise ship is much cheaper and much more relaxing than sailing your own boat. I actually feel some nostalgia for it now and again. I spent a month cruising North Brittany on my own boat last summer, and didn't read a single book. I hardly saw anything of the magical places we visited, either. I was working too hard running and maintaining the vessel, fixing things, finding spare parts in pidgin French, navigating, passage planning, running tidal vector calculations, provisioning, making electricity, etc., etc., etc. It's tremendous fun, of course -- the most fun thing you can do, probably, with your clothes on -- but it is hard work.

There's a lot to be said for taking a trip on a cruise ship, as a vacation, especially for someone who works hard and needs a rest. Before I ever tried it, I also thought that it was a disgusting form of cheap, mass tourism. It's not that at all, as it turns out. It is exceedingly pleasant, and an outstanding value for the money.
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Old 24-01-2012, 02:47   #737
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

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If this other captain was representing the company, perhaps he was in uniform and was in the dining room when passengers reported seeing the 'captain' dining at the time of the incident????
This was just a "cruising" retired merchant marine captain, an Italian passenger. Nothing to do with Costa at all. This fact is mentioned somewhere in the beginning of the thread.
His activity is only shortly mentioned.
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Old 24-01-2012, 02:51   #738
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

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I just checked it out on my post, needless to say didn't hit "send". Another question, on a forum as large as CC, if the triangle brings up the same as here, is there a setting for automatic response to the offending poster whereas a mod doesn't have to act. The folks over there that were upset with my posts on factual aspects of large ships, I never engaged them in conversations.
No, there is no automatic response to a reported post. No one wants the tool to be used for members to simply harrass each other. A judgement is always made whether the complaint is justified or not, and often it is not. And if a complaint is justified, the range of appropriate responses is far too great to leave to a computer program to decide.

I haven't read your posts on CC, but you probably upset some people in some way which you don't understand. Even a seemingly calm factual post can be offensive to some people if it is made in a certain context. Forums like to have more rather than fewer members, so they don't usually ban members lightly. To earn a ban so quickly you must have really gotten under someone's collar.

I can imagine that if said in just the right way and just the right context, a superficially calm and factual post about the stability of cruise ships might sound to some people like "giant cruise ships are all death traps, and you are all total morons to go aboard them." Such a message would, obviously, not earn you a warm welcome on a forum devoted to the activity of sailing on giant cruise ships.

Just like, I suppose, if someone went on a catamaran forum and started calmly and factually posting details about different catamaran capsizes together with all of the technical arguments about why catamarans are inclined (so to speak) to capsize, with photographs of the dead bodies of killed catamaran skippers. Depending on how you present this information, it can be extremely offensive, even if it is all true, and even if you didn't make any actual disparaging comments. It's the implication which causes the offense.
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Old 24-01-2012, 02:52   #739
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

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Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
I just checked it out on my post, needless to say didn't hit "send". Another question, on a forum as large as CC, if the triangle brings up the same as here, is there a setting for automatic response to the offending poster whereas a mod doesn't have to act. The folks over there that were upset with my posts on factual aspects of large ships, I never engaged them in conversations.
What do you expect? You signed up to CC and trolled. That is what it would certainly look like from the CC members point of view.

I doubt that they care about the stability of the cruise ships beyond whether CC members report seeing their lunches a 2nd time during rough weather.

At the end of the day their lives are far more at risk during the drive to the port, crossing the road after being dropped off opposite the terminal and also possibly more at risk during the flight to the cruise.

Life’s about accessing risk and taking acceptable risks.

Just accept that in terms of CC you performed a classic troll raid
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Old 24-01-2012, 03:03   #740
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

@ Dockhead

How can? You should have enjoyed every minute. I think - excuse me the liberty - you reverse priorities. I use wintertime to get even with outfitting and repairs.
But you run a quite big ship that I don' t. My previous Standfast 40 was always ready to sail when I wanted it and the entretien was minimal. The present one is not even worth measuring it, but will raise no intensive maintainance.

We are drifting off topic. BTW the previous reply was to ease Deckofficer.
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Old 24-01-2012, 03:13   #741
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

So let's back to business.
I heard some voices that "there were no rocks on charts". Well I did some research and here's what I have found out.

In general, there are six types of ENCs, precisely: Overview, General, Coastal, Approach, Harbour and Breth.

Below you can see what they might have seen on General, Coastal, Approach and Harbour charts:

General (1:700000)


Coastal (1:90000)


Approach (1:12000)


Harbour (1:4000)


So, if they had only General/Coastal charts, they don't see those rocks. However, navigating outside the major waterways without detailed charts is quite irresponsible.
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Old 24-01-2012, 03:16   #742
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

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Originally Posted by MacG View Post
@ Dockhead

How can? You should have enjoyed every minute. I think - excuse me the liberty - you reverse priorities. I use wintertime to get even with outfitting and repairs.
But you run a quite big ship that I don' t. My previous Standfast 40 was always ready to sail when I wanted it and the entretien was minimal. The present one is not even worth measuring it, but will raise no intensive maintainance.

We are drifting off topic. BTW the previous reply was to ease Deckofficer.
I did enjoy every minute. I love being on my boat and I love fixing her, too. As they say, a bad day on your boat beats a good day in the office every time.

My point was not that I didn't enjoy, my point is just that it is a lot of work -- it's not very relaxing.

I suppose if I were more aggressive with winter maintenance, I would have less to do on cruise. But my boat is now 12 years old -- an age when a lot of components are reaching the end of their useful lives. So really there are always a lot of things to do. Just a few of the failures I had in Brittany:

1. Wind instrument vane at masthead broken by seagull.
2. Autopilot hydraulic pump failed.
3. Windlass failed -- motor housing collapsed.
4. Fresh water pressure pump started leaking. I couldn't stop the leak and replaced the pump.
5. Toilet problems -- had to rebuild forward manual Jabsco pump and had problems with the aft electric one -- fell out of love with Jabsco toilets forever.
6. Problems with electric davit motors -- bad belts.
7. Work to try to revive damaged batteries.
8. Etc.

Besides that, I didn't manage to install my new Victron charger/inverter before leaving, so this was done underway. It was a big job involving significant rewiring in order to route all AC power through the new unit, plus difficult physical installation in an inaccessible part of the engine compartment.

So besides the usual work load of running and sailing the ship, there was really quite a lot of mechanical work to do. I was very busy. Happy, but busy. Didn't read any books; didn't even visit Cruisers Forum
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Old 24-01-2012, 03:28   #743
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

@ Bjoola

This was apparently not the first time they sailed alongside Giglio. As said, Schettino comes with a variety of excuses and after a short time nobody knows anymore what has happened or not.

No rocks, captain on the bridge, captain not on the bridge, captain with bimbo on the bridge, captain with bimbo in restaurant one hour after collision, - we are drifting in a fast tempo away from what realty was due to pure speculation.

The first thing you would do as a captain is making sure that you keep in reasonable distance from the shore and make sure that your lane is obstacle free. Rocks are a common asset in the Med. Anyone sailing the Med is aware of that.
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Old 24-01-2012, 03:39   #744
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Sorry Dockhead, my reply was in no way meant to be patronising of some sort.
I used to be a member of a Nortsea cruising Community with paying guests sailing to different UK, France & Nordic locations and an annual cruise to Jan Mayen. I did part of their maintainance in change for free passage so I know a bit about keeping 60 ft > in shape. Do not touch the subject of toilets - some ladies were tempted to deposit their monthly requirements in the toilets, leading to drama' s in 3 stages. So I could dismantle a toilet in a remote location, cursing all the girls in the world.
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Old 24-01-2012, 03:50   #745
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

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I didn't think I was being critical, just stating a known fact about the very low positive stability of a cruise ship even lower than a RORO, and that is by design for passenger comfort and to maximize accommodations.

Good morning, that is if its morning, I feel like a CC refugee myself, actually I feel like one of those steerage passengers on the Titanic over at CC.
I still read up trying to keep informed about the Concordia that is until I find a better forum during the upcoming salvage process. And THAT will be interesting being that millions will be watching it every step up the way, this is a historic occasion.

I almost want to have the same feeling when I read Clive Cusslers book "Raise the Titanic" many years ago, and then the same feeling when I took my mother to the theater in Houston TX to go see the same movie. Being a descendent of a seafaring family (my grandfather crewed on Clipper ships) and being raise on an island I have a huge latent passion of the sea.

Oh I have some real maritime experience but for the most part I am a historian of submarines and a collector of model ships from historical racing sloops to 3' long models of the Enterprise and the Titanic, I have a 5' long model of a Gato class US submarine, one model earlier than the one used in the movie "Operation Petticoat".

I felt that while DO's comments were worthy for the intellectual minded I do have to say they prefer to be in the herd of the "happy happy" cruise crowd, after even being able to afford the really prestigious long cruises is a status symbol, and when you get an engineer or hired help showing up at the party in a Dodge Ram PU with the grill of a Rolls Royce, well I hope people see what I am saying.

Times are very sensitive right now, the cruise industry is BIG, forums like that probably have a working deal somewhere behind closed doors and they don't want any drop in business. If one employed public relations person on that forum thought anyone's opinion would be detrimental to the cash registers then I would also see why they love to use the red triangle, don't sweat it, besides its a more laid back crowd here.
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Old 24-01-2012, 03:57   #746
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

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Sorry Dockhead, my reply was in no way meant to be patronising of some sort.
I used to be a member of a Nortsea cruising Community with paying guests sailing to different UK, France & Nordic locations and an annual cruise to Jan Mayen. I did part of their maintainance in change for free passage so I know a bit about keeping 60 ft > in shape. Do not touch the subject of toilets - some ladies were tempted to deposit their monthly requirements in the toilets, leading to drama' s in 3 stages. So I could dismantle a toilet in a remote location, cursing all the girls in the world.
I had the same nightmare on a three deck sternwheeler in Lake Tahoe, womens head constantly being plugged up, didn't help that occasionally I had to open the hatch to the sewage holding tank and physically crawl into it to rake out the debris. And then having a 100' sewage suction line constantly plugging up, oh yeah it can make a person look at women on a boat with scorn.
Something one should keep in mind if ever you may have lots of guests aboard to offer a sanitary waste container, with polite signs.
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Old 24-01-2012, 04:09   #747
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

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Originally Posted by MacG View Post
Sorry Dockhead, my reply was in no way meant to be patronising of some sort.
I used to be a member of a Nortsea cruising Community with paying guests sailing to different UK, France & Nordic locations and an annual cruise to Jan Mayen. I did part of their maintainance in change for free passage so I know a bit about keeping 60 ft > in shape. Do not touch the subject of toilets - some ladies were tempted to deposit their monthly requirements in the toilets, leading to drama' s in 3 stages. So I could dismantle a toilet in a remote location, cursing all the girls in the world.
LOL! You get the idea!

With seven bunks and often that many people on board, there is just so much to do!! Even with good, technically-minded crew on board.

I have to say that the ladies I have had on board were all far too clever and far too salty to ever put anything untoward in one of the toilets. My problems last summer were all due to crappy Jabsco engineering, not misuse.

However, I spent a couple of weeks on a friend's 90' Swan where the teenage Chinese girlfriend of one of his mogul guests DID put one of those items in one of his nice Vacuflush heads -- ouch! The professional captain spent a very unpleasant afternoon, cursing the whole time, dismantling the plumbing and sorting that one out!
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Old 24-01-2012, 04:47   #748
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

I can fill a book about toilets. I became friends with an engineer of a SuperMega during the Show in Nice. He invited me on board and there was that faint, typical smell.
He knew it was something down there in the bilge, but he suffered from claustrofobia and no one of the crew was prepared to crawl there to look for the problem. It was quite complicated because those ships have a number of grey- and blackwater holding tanks. The space in between the tankdeck and the floore was extremely narrow, but grace my jockey-like posture I had no difficulty to go in.
I took a dive and found the problem: the main sewerpipe of the blackwater was broken.
Repair was not that difficult: with an oversize sock and PVC glue it was a matter of an hour. But it was a very dirty job, that I can tell you.
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Old 24-01-2012, 05:13   #749
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

The sewage tank on the Tahoe Queen was huge at a rough guess after all the years it must have been 10,000 gallons, I know that during the peak summer season after a whole days worth of three or four cruises you could actually see the boast listing to the port side, my job on the weekends when I ran the evening dinner cruise was to pump it out into the city sewage line.

I would have to drag 100' of 4" suction line down the dock summer and winter after midnite even if I had over 2 feet of snow on the dock.

having a max rated capacity of 500 passengers and as many as four trips out on the lake its no wonder have the time I felt like it was nothing but a floating honey bucket boat. The whole operation of being on board during the cruises rarely had more than two people that kept herd of the engines and passengers, usually the bar and wait staff did that so basically you had the morning guy which was me through part of the work week and then I had the evening shifts on the weekends. Not a really big organized affir to be honest and last I heard they kinda dropped into some obscurity since the local competition built a bigger fancier boat.
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Old 24-01-2012, 05:14   #750
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

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@ Bjoola

This was apparently not the first time they sailed alongside Giglio. As said, Schettino comes with a variety of excuses and after a short time nobody knows anymore what has happened or not.

No rocks, captain on the bridge, captain not on the bridge, captain with bimbo on the bridge, captain with bimbo in restaurant one hour after collision, - we are drifting in a fast tempo away from what realty was due to pure speculation.

The first thing you would do as a captain is making sure that you keep in reasonable distance from the shore and make sure that your lane is obstacle free. Rocks are a common asset in the Med. Anyone sailing the Med is aware of that.
I'm fully aware of that...
just showing what charts are available (which is a fact, not speculation)
But you're right that saying which charts did they have onboard and which don't is pure speculation
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