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Old 18-01-2012, 12:19   #331
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

I just love the way the lynch mob here already has the captains head in the noose and are ready to open the trap door and yet there seems to be a lot of facts not yet established.

Do we even know exactly where the ship hit the rocks? Were the rocks marked on the charts?

There was criticism from the company that the detour was not approved by them, yet they had previously approved such a detour. If they approved it in the past then the company is implying that the captains detour did not knowing put the ship at risk... If they had not hit anything, would the shipping company have given the captain a ballsing out for putting the ship at risk? I think not, perhaps a ballsing out for using more fuel than necessary.

Of course if the captain plotted an unsafe course into a know danger area, or perhaps plotted a safe course and for what ever reason let the ship stray off course, then open the trap door.

Perhaps we should wait for the facts.

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Old 18-01-2012, 12:20   #332
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

Strange how perceptions (of same info) can differ...

The snippets I heard of the CG / Captain conversation sounded to me like CG covering own backside - in arrears.

How many women and children onboard? Lol! leaving aside the sexism of counting women (they wanted equality - you got it! - join the Q for the lifeboat )....I have no idea how this information could be expected to be obtained mid evacuation - I doubt if the crew embarking passengers were keeping accurate logs (and what purpose would be served by tasking the Capt with this role at that point?).....be easier to count folk as and when they arrive ashore.

and fundamentally does it really matter how many still onboard? A quick Google would have said 4,000 passengers (even if info not already asked for from the Captain) and whether all onboard or only hundreds surely it would have been a case of throw all available resources at the problem, even if "Just in case"? (in practice of course would not have been a great deal of specialised resources / craft / personnel immediately available)...my bet is that CG realised that they could / should have done more in advance of the Abandon Ship order being issued.....I would be very surprised if Capt was not communicating with local authorities and Owners (if not also the CG) well before the "Abandon Ship" order was given - IMO those are the details where the devil lies......

Start pointing fingers = classic CYA.

I would also be very surprised if Capt (and CG) had not been in touch with the owners - probably some commercial considerations in not rushing out specialists to assess the damage and possibly provide assistance (accepting that in this case would have likely arrived too late)....hoping that vessel could steam back to a dry dock on the mainland.

One thing that struck me about the conversation was that the CG said "we are in control" - in which case, why were they not onboard directing the evacuation? .

I am sure the Capt was aware that an evacuation of 4,000 passengers, at sea, was not something to be done lightly - odds are very high that some people would be injured, if not die, simply from the numbers involved and the fact that many of the passengers would have been elderly.....but probably also a touch of denial (and some commercial considerations - even if unwritten), plus the fact that the damage assessment would not be exact - the damage being judged survivable may not have been such an unreasonable call, even though subequent events proved it to be wrong!

Not to say that the Captain does not deserve all he gets for the initial "fly by" decision (even if not on the wheel himself - buck stops with him) - but I would be very surprised if the Owners did not know that the practice (there and elsewhere) of deviating from the stated route was not unusual - if not actually common place.

Capt falling overboard does however sound a bit careless .

Although the Captain is (presently) losing the PR war - IMO he is being very sensible in now keeping schtum, until he gets a forum to do so as evidence (rather than to feed the tabloids).
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Old 18-01-2012, 12:31   #333
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

It may or may be arguably just something from a Hollywood film but just for the sake of discussion and to not even to take any sides but what if....


The ship was hijacked electronically like out of something similar to Speed 2? may have been completely remote, all the nav a drive controls hacked, that its a terrorist job?

my gut says no but nowadays you can be fooled quite easily with misdirection.
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Old 18-01-2012, 12:33   #334
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

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Originally Posted by Astrid View Post
I had some damage control training, and on the average, for a ship that size, it takes at least half an hour to sound the ship, assess the damage and the options and begin damage control proceedures. One starts with the obvious in a case like the Costa Concordia by closing water tight doors and engaging pumps, but it may be some while before the situation becomes clear enough to formulate a plan to keep the ship afloat or, if that seems impossible, to order abandon ship. Still, the captain of the Concordia certainly appears to have taken his time; I should think that a quick message that the ship had touched ground and suffered damage might have been a wise move to alert authorities ashore and allow them to begin mustering help--then as the situation became more clear he could have issued the SOS and his plan to beach the ship in shallow waters to facilitate abandoning ship and rescuing the passengers and crew. Of course, it is possible that he did just that, but I do not know one way or the other.
Good points Astrid but I think Bridge and Engineering would have known within 5 minutes as Bilge Alarms went off in many sections... that the hull was seriously damaged and taking on significant water.

What happened afterwards is presently full of conjecture and emotion until we get an official timeline of movement and actions, but seems consistent with damage control and trying to save the ship.

Basically use an anchor to warp ship up close to a beach laying out chain in deeper water to later assist in salvage.

The big danger in doing this with 4000 souls on board is that as soon as the keel touches the bottom, you get in to a critical stability situation where the vessel will heel over much quicker as she continues to sink under the flooding.

Time lapse photos will eventually show how quick it listed after “taking the keel” to the extreme angle she is now with being tidal.

I suspect that rock sticking out of the hull is actually a pinnacle rock that has punched thru as she laid over, but hard to tell from the photos.

I hope that is the case because it will help to stabilize the wreck, because the vessel is now at the mercy of weather to give them time to transfer the fuel out, replacing with water ballast, before she breaks up.

I see some bad weather on the way, so it is nature that will play the next act in the lives of the locals.

Best case scenario for the locals will be minimal environmental damage and serious compensation for the disruption to their lives.

Worst case… swimming in light fuel oil for the next year as a broken wreck slides in pieces into deeper water, soon to become a rusty eyesore until it is cut away in sections by salvors.
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Old 18-01-2012, 12:53   #335
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

What a mess on all accounts!! Capt Phil
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Old 18-01-2012, 12:54   #336
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

Quote:
I think Bridge and Engineering would have known within 5 minutes as Bilge Alarms went off in many sections... that the hull was seriously damaged and taking on significant water.
Yes, the fire and flood board on the bridge would have shown what compartments were compromised and this would help determine what compartments to close off with watertight doors to establish a flooding boundary. The next step would be to sound the ship and see how much and how fast water was coming in, all the while mustering the damage control teams and getting the bilge pumps in operation. At some point it would be come evident if they could save the ship or not and presumably, 58 minutes after the collision, it seemed doubtful that the ship could stay afloat on her own.

I would hope the captain was in direct communication with the local authorities while this was going on--I cannot imagine he had not been, although no news story so far seems to mention anything other than the sending out of the distress call 58 minutes later. The decision to beach the ship was probably the correct one in the circumstances as it offered a means to minimize casualties during evacuation and offered a better chance of salvage later on.
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Old 18-01-2012, 12:57   #337
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverado6x6 View Post
It may or may be arguably just something from a Hollywood film but just for the sake of discussion and to not even to take any sides but what if....


The ship was hijacked electronically like out of something similar to Speed 2? may have been completely remote, all the nav a drive controls hacked, that its a terrorist job?

my gut says no but nowadays you can be fooled quite easily with misdirection.
It was one of these guys. Ship Docking Game ~ Online Ship Docking Game
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Old 18-01-2012, 13:04   #338
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So now it is reported that the Captain admitted navigating by eye only because he was very familiar with the area and did this several times before, and ordering the turn too late.

Now let's see what all the CF members that always write that eyeball nav is best and proven, think about that.

Estimating the ROT (rate of turn) on ships in close quarters is proven to be very difficult, too difficult for humans. On rivers they have computer guided systems to make the turns for barges that are mini compared to this collosal ship.

If the captain would have been a plotter-jockey they would most probably have made it.

cheers,
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Old 18-01-2012, 13:09   #339
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

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Flash developers, of course!!
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Old 18-01-2012, 13:31   #340
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

Looks like by Saturday morning local time they will have Gale Force winds and 2-3 meter seas
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Old 18-01-2012, 13:34   #341
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

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If the captain would have been a plotter-jockey they would most probably have made it.
cheers,
Nick.
Hi Nick..... If he had looked out the window, he would not have tried it!!!
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Old 18-01-2012, 13:37   #342
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

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See, the Mono didn't sink!
Didn't self right either.

BTW it is sitting on the bottom. That's sunk.
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Old 18-01-2012, 13:41   #343
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BTW it is sitting on the bottom. That's sunk.
It was not for the pic of the multi sitting on the bottom when I posted that so it is not sunk now either until it disappears into the depths

cheers,
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Old 18-01-2012, 13:43   #344
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Hi Nick..... If he had looked out the window, he would not have tried it!!!
You missed it ... he did look out the window; it was his so called familiarity with the area and his perceived eyeball navigation skills that caused this.

cheers,
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Old 18-01-2012, 13:49   #345
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
So now it is reported that the Captain admitted navigating by eye only because he was very familiar with the area and did this several times before, and ordering the turn too late.

Now let's see what all the CF members that always write that eyeball nav is best and proven, think about that.

Estimating the ROT (rate of turn) on ships in close quarters is proven to be very difficult, too difficult for humans. On rivers they have computer guided systems to make the turns for barges that are mini compared to this collosal ship.

If the captain would have been a plotter-jockey they would most probably have made it.

cheers,
Nick.
Hi Nick

You want to put up the link to that please as i cannot find anything that deviates from his initial report that he was using the ships “tourist navigation system”....

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