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Old 16-01-2012, 00:07   #166
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
It's now being reported on several media sites that say the boat hit the outer section of la scole. The formation close to shore and south of the port. They claim the ship came close to " salute" the town..

Then after the impact the captain tried to run her aground near the port using the anchors to turn her , his intention seemingly to ensure she settled into shallow water. That's why she's facing south.

I simply can't beleive anyone took a ship of that size knowingly that close to a well charted obstruction. If that turns out to be the case the captain and the whole bridge team should be locked up for a long time. That's not manslaughter that's a premeditated act.

Dave
That is manslaughter. The dictionary says thus :

"the unlawful killing of a human being without malice aforethought"

Are you saying when they went close to the reef it was with the premeditated intention of murdering the passengers and crew?

For it to be murder you have to be planning to kill someone, not planning to do something stupid that gets people killed, which is manslaughter.
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Old 16-01-2012, 02:01   #167
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

There's a lot of wild-a** speculation on here.

Those assuming that the AIS tracks show where the ship was minute to minute make the same mistake which the navigator on the ship probably did -- to assume that the available scale of an electronic resource reflects the actual accuracy of the information. No way that ship went through the gap inside La Scuola, and none of the reports talk about that.

What they do talk about is that the Concordia habitually buzzed the island to give the passengers a show (and the islanders, too). What seems to have happened is that they got too close and hit a rock as they were passing by the outside of La Scuola. The bridge crew then understood that the ship was sinking, and intentionally ran it aground. The reason why the ship is now facing South is because they dropped the port side anchor and spun around on it just before the ship grounded.

Sounds to me like pretty good seamanship to me. They did succeed in getting the ship on the sand bar so preventing the ship from sinking, which saved possibly thousands of people. The evacuation sounds like complete bedlam, and was still going on at 05:00. If the bridge crew had not managed to make that turn and get the ship on the sand bar, God knows how many people would have died.

Apparently the captain was one of the first ashore, and there are reports that he refused to go back to the ship to organize the ongoing evacuation, when the Coast Guard asked him to do so. That is apparently the basis of charges against him of abandoning the ship.

If you ask me, the most likely explanation of the accident is that the bridge simply got too close, navigating to a chart plotter as if playing a video game. They assumed that if the plotter told them they were in good water, they must be. But the scale of the plotter does not correspond to the accuracy of the underlying charts. Their charts are no better than the ones you and I use. They were too close and hit a rock. This is also speculation, but I will bet dollars to donuts that this is what comes out in the end.
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Old 16-01-2012, 02:08   #168
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

Agree with your perception, wasn't there another incident a few years back when the catain was first off so he could direct the rescue from ashore??? Malta maybe? just cannot recall.
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Old 16-01-2012, 02:25   #169
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
There's a lot of wild-a** speculation on here.


Sounds to me like pretty good seamanship to me. They did succeed in getting the ship on the sand bar so preventing the ship from sinking, which saved possibly thousands of people.
You may well be correct although I doubt he'll be applauded for it. If such an accident were to be repeated in identical circumstances, I doubt whether any action on the part of the captain & crew could have resulted in fewer casualties.
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Old 16-01-2012, 02:53   #170
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
There's a lot of wild-a** speculation on here.

Those assuming that the AIS tracks show where the ship was minute to minute make the same mistake which the navigator on the ship probably did -- to assume that the available scale of an electronic resource reflects the actual accuracy of the information. No way that ship went through the gap inside La Scuola, and none of the reports talk about that.

What they do talk about is that the Concordia habitually buzzed the island to give the passengers a show (and the islanders, too). What seems to have happened is that they got too close and hit a rock as they were passing by the outside of La Scuola. The bridge crew then understood that the ship was sinking, and intentionally ran it aground. The reason why the ship is now facing South is because they dropped the port side anchor and spun around on it just before the ship grounded.

Sounds to me like pretty good seamanship to me. They did succeed in getting the ship on the sand bar so preventing the ship from sinking, which saved possibly thousands of people. The evacuation sounds like complete bedlam, and was still going on at 05:00. If the bridge crew had not managed to make that turn and get the ship on the sand bar, God knows how many people would have died.

Apparently the captain was one of the first ashore, and there are reports that he refused to go back to the ship to organize the ongoing evacuation, when the Coast Guard asked him to do so. That is apparently the basis of charges against him of abandoning the ship.

If you ask me, the most likely explanation of the accident is that the bridge simply got too close, navigating to a chart plotter as if playing a video game. They assumed that if the plotter told them they were in good water, they must be. But the scale of the plotter does not correspond to the accuracy of the underlying charts. Their charts are no better than the ones you and I use. They were too close and hit a rock. This is also speculation, but I will bet dollars to donuts that this is what comes out in the end.

Theres no way , That ship ever went that close , Looking at the La Scole on the charts shows that (a) its quite inshore and (b) anyone looling at charts would stay a mile away. I agree however that the ship did not pass inside la Scole or between the two rocks. it hit the outside

Secondly a big cruise ships idea of a close passage might be a mile off, not 200 metres. No theres much more to this incident then just a too close flyby.
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Old 16-01-2012, 03:38   #171
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

I think that Dockhead's resume is the most viable explanation. As I showed already in the first posts, there is no way that the Concordia could match the gap between the rocks of Le Scole. That gap is in the middle not even wide enough to let the vessel through, a bit further it narrows and on Google maps you can clearly see the underlying rocky sides.
No chance it moved that way.

Secondly, electronic charts have differences, and are far from accurate.
In another post here on the forum it was even established that in a particular circumstance the accurate difference between reality and virtual was something of a mile.

Local knowledge.
I believe the captain has had sufficient local knowledge to sail close by as the sea around Giglio is quite deep and shores very steep.
However, this time he pressed his luck and ran against the outer rock of Le Scole.

I agree with Dockhead that he decided for the lesser evil and ran his ship aground since that was still possible.
The chaotic embarkation is not completely at the captain's debt. It is once and for all the Company, Costa Cruises, whose management fails to crew the ship with a number of hardcore seaman capable to guide in case of emergency the pax (and incapable crew) to the safer places of the ship (if there are any) and to an orderly retreat to the lifeboats.

The other problem, which is not subject to a change, is the total design and concept of this and similar vessels.
The captain was well aware of this fact and therefore he did not hesitate to beach his ship.
To support this fact is that embarkation drills for all passengers is virtually impossible. It is not feasible to give clear instructions to thousands of passengers and than expecting that such instruction could be given in a reasonable timespan. Passengers are there to relax, not to be drilled.
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Old 16-01-2012, 04:01   #172
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Theres no way , That ship ever went that close , Looking at the La Scole on the charts shows that (a) its quite inshore and (b) anyone looling at charts would stay a mile away. I agree however that the ship did not pass inside la Scole or between the two rocks. it hit the outside

Secondly a big cruise ships idea of a close passage might be a mile off, not 200 metres. No theres much more to this incident then just a too close flyby.
There's an interview somewhere where the captain said he was a few hundred meters offshore, and that the rock should not have been there.

It's here: Costa Concordia captain says accident rock was not on map - video | World news | guardian.co.uk

He says that they were 300 meters off shore when they hit the rock, and should have had 100 -- 150 meters from the rock according to the navigation system.

I think that proves it pretty well. This clearly implies that he assumed that the electronic chart was accurate to more than 100 meters. That would be the fatal assumption, which caused the wreck.

I agree that a close pass for a huge ship like that is a mile off. Well, 300 meters is about a cable-and-a-half. And he thought he was less than a cable from a known obstruction. "I should have had 100 -- 150 meters according to the chart!" is what he was, more or less, saying.

That interview is pretty damning, I would say.
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Old 16-01-2012, 04:04   #173
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

considering there were 4200 onboard,and the rapid capsize i'd say only 50 missing is pretty remarkable.
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Old 16-01-2012, 04:27   #174
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

Quote:
I agree with Dockhead that he decided for the lesser evil and ran his ship aground since that was still possible.
The chaotic embarkation is not completely at the captain's debt. It is once and for all the Company, Costa Cruises, whose management fails to crew the ship with a number of hardcore seaman capable to guide in case of emergency the pax (and incapable crew) to the safer places of the ship (if there are any) and to an orderly retreat to the lifeboats.

Unfortunately , major cruise ship disaster embarkation proceedures are an industry wide mess. Firstly its widely regarded as alomost impossible to self-rescue the whole ship, ie get all passangers and crew into life boats/rafts. In essence without significant outside help you cant get the people in a timely manner.

Especially in situations of list, at approx 15degrees+ this renders the lifeboats on that side virtually unusable. Then you have the logistics of moving 4000+ people around, including the death trap that is, where you have to return to your cabin to get your lifejacket. ( yet the boats have lifejackets anyway). On big cruise ships even in the whole of your health , internal navigation of the passanger spaces is difficult. Image it in the dark or with panic stricken people.

The main features of rescues from cruise ships is similar to that off large high rise towers, the sheer scale overwhelms the rescue concepts. The main feature of teh design of these ships is to keep them afloat in order to close the coast and stay above the water for a fairly long time ( hours at least). IN the case of the costa concordia, that did happen theship stayed mainly upright for a large portion of the night and only listed over heavily later in the night near the end of the rescue.

Lifeboat solutions are repeatidly shown to very problematic with the scale and numbers involved.

On top of that you have an enormous language issue. Costa in the med ensured it captured many different nationalities. PA annoucements where made in 5 languages, but it is a fact of life that crew , other then a select few cannot speak multiple languages, in fact they may have trouble with one language. Hence in an emergency when crew are deployed to aid passangers, this may not be their normal job and they may not be able to communicate effectively, often poor english is used as a third party language , with the obvious difficulties. All this results in increased panic and more importantly a breakdown in passenger confidence and hence a lack of ability to trust crew. Once this order is broken down, restoring it is impossible.

It was commented in several reports that announcements over the PA in 5 languages resulted in significant delays in passengers receiving information and as a particular language announcement is completed, that group breaks away acting on the information leaving the remainder panicked and often not waiting to hear the announcement.

Add to that the fact that unlike in smaller ships of old, the vast majority of "crew" are nothing of the sort, they are hotel staff with no connection to the sea. Only a very small ( and getting smaller) group are in effect merchant seamen.


The problem is the sheer size, and the lack of suitable rescue procedures titanic was half the size and carried 1300 passengers and 900 crew approx, Costa Concordia had 3200 passengers and 1000 crew. Rescues of this size should not be carried out with early 20th century thinking and appliances, yet that's what does happen. This is whats got to change.
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Old 16-01-2012, 04:32   #175
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

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considering there were 4200 onboard,and the rapid capsize i'd say only 50 missing is pretty remarkable.

there wasnt a rapid capsize, it stayed upright more of less for over 8 hours. ( thats why the 4000 got off) if was so normal that the deputy mayor of Gioglia came out and got on and announced it seemed ok. Early pictures after it stoped showed people standing around at quite a managable list. It was only the last groups that suffered the serious list( most likely caused by her slipping down the shoal towards the deeper water.)

Theres no evidence that she was grounded in the port . My understanding now is the captain apprached the port anchored and swung her around so as she list into shallow water. only maybe then did she touch.
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Old 16-01-2012, 04:46   #176
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

To be honest - if I was crew I would be first to the lifeboats....I too have watched the Poseiden adventure!

Sue me later.......on the Titantic crew were only paid up to the day of sinking, not for the whole passage.....it's the freemarket in action, if you play gotta also suck up the downside.

Min wage (with or without tips - aka begging) only gets you so much. Including on "safety".
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Old 16-01-2012, 06:06   #177
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

New map showing rock strike location..

Its media so can't verify but matching up against what the captain said etc, its looking likely that this is what happened.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/image...a_976in_v3.gif
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Old 16-01-2012, 06:15   #178
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

This is getting off topic, but if anyone is interested in the economics of this ship --

It is supposed to have cost 450 million euros. This sounds like a gigantic sum, BUT --

She carries 3,780 passengers.

That is a capital cost of about 120,000 euros per passenger. If we figure it's all double-occupancy, then say 240,000 euros per room.

That is similar to the cost of an ordinary four-star hotel. Now a four star hotel is built on real estate which has residual value, whereas a ship depreciates eventually to nothing. But a ship has got no real estate taxes, and can be flagged somewhere where there are no minimum wage laws and few if any other kinds of taxes, which saves a lot of operating expenses.

So no wonder cruises are so cheap compared to staying in a nice resort.

Sorry, a bit OT.
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Old 16-01-2012, 06:40   #179
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

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Originally Posted by PyotrBee View Post
New map showing rock strike location..

Its media so can't verify but matching up against what the captain said etc, its looking likely that this is what happened.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/image...a_976in_v3.gif

Again the rocks of Le Scole in the picture. So, not on the inside (too narrow) but on the outside.
Here an enlargement:
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Giglio Le Sole rocks.JPG
Views:	140
Size:	153.4 KB
ID:	36053  
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Old 16-01-2012, 07:12   #180
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re: Cruise Ship Costa Concordia - MERGED THREADS

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Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
That is manslaughter. The dictionary says thus :

"the unlawful killing of a human being without malice aforethought"

Are you saying when they went close to the reef it was with the premeditated intention of murdering the passengers and crew?

For it to be murder you have to be planning to kill someone, not planning to do something stupid that gets people killed, which is manslaughter.

If there were INTENT to kill the charge would be higher to manslaughter. In manslaughter, you did not intend to kill someone, but you still did, directly because of actions you took -- for example, drunk driing -- or reckless driving.

This apparently was the equivalent of maritime 'reckless driving.' If this pans out, then manslaughter is appropriate.
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