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Old 20-10-2014, 14:19   #76
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Re: COLREGS - Sailing in an anchorage or mooring field

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
However at least while on a racing course (as opposed to a distance race) every sailboat race in US territorial waters should be permitted by the USCG. Which means if you sail thru my race course not only have you interfered with the racers, you have also, just by being there, violated COLREGS. Now usually racers don't care that much, and usually non-racers are polite enough to remove themselves from a course once the recognize it as such.
Seriously? When we race we periodically have to avoid lobster traps, day sailors, other racing fleets, kelp, barges, tankers, private fishing boats at anchor, etc., etc. and everyone just uses some common sense and adheres to the COLREGS when necessary and does the best they can. Sometimes it's inconvenient but generally not big a deal. That said, we're also a bunch of amateurs just trying to have a good time and maybe win a trophy.
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Old 20-10-2014, 14:21   #77
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Re: COLREGS - Sailing in an anchorage or mooring field

Racing has nothing to do with the OP's post; personally, I think racers are no more likely to cause chaos than anyone else, certainly less than boaters who are ignorant of the rules, but racers always seem to draw more than their share of flack because they are so obvious.

The OP's video starts ends with a question about "right of way" which term is then corrected for "sailing purists". Perhaps that's the start of the misunderstanding! None of the boats has "right of way". But each has its obligation and duty. The J is the "stand-on" vessel, which means it should keep its course. The OP's boat and the blue boat are "give way" or "burdened" vessels, which is exactly what that implies. The COLREGS were originally created by a consortium of insurance companies with the goal of eliminating confusion and accidents, even before there were radios. And, there is no confusion here, at all. Unless you don't know the COLREGS!

To assert that there is anything "reckless" about sailboats in the act of sailing is absurd. They are designed to sail and, good ones (and that includes J's), if sailed correctly, are often more maneuverable than their powered cousins. To say that there is something inherently reckless about sailing in a mooring field begs the question of whether it is inherently reckless to power through a mooring field....particularly since many powerboat skippers are much less skilled than their sailing brethren. And sailboats are designed to be able to anchor or moor, or even dock, under sail, when done correctly. Many do. I believe the percentage of boating accidents that involve power boats is something around 85%....often involves alcohol and speed, to.

I run a charter cat in the BVI, and frequently sail onto an anchor and onto or off moorings and through mooring fields, channels through reefs, you name it. But I pay close attention to what I am doing, try to think ahead, and brief my crew as to exactly what to expect. I do this, not to show off, but to demonstrate to my guests (who may be students) what a sailboat, yes, even a cat, can do. They love it. And, I always hope it prods the onlookers to want to develop the skills to do the same thing.

It's especially fun when I have guests on board who sail.....almost always, the guys say "we wanted to charter a monohull, because we are real sailors, but the girls.....". It's always my goal for their comments, when they leave the boat, to be along the lines of "we had no idea a cat like this could sail so well." But, this is not a cat/mono discussion,,,both can be sailed well.

Getting back to the OP, it is clear that neither he nor the blue boat understand the absence of ambiguity. That's interesting, since the blue boat looks like it might be big enough and the right brand to have a pro skipper.....! But, there is nothing crowded about the conditions, nor difficult about the weather. Everything evolves quite slowly and the J is obviously powered down without its jib. The J is the stand-on boat. Neither the OP nor the blue boat think they need to give way, and they don't seem to understand that the two best ways are to duck behind the stand-on boat or to slow down - even stop, if necessary. There is plenty of time and room for either of them to use either tactic. But the OP steadfastly holds his course and then accelerates. And the blue boat heads to port and completely blocks the J, who, in desperation, is then forced to tack. Looking at the video, I think he was going to sail back into the mooring field, which is pretty wide open at that point. But the blue boat forces him back into the channel.

Oh well, in our society where we expect others to provide us with complete safety, and we avoid any responsibility for it, ourselves, I suppose this is to be expected.We used to say that sailing was the one place where one still had freedom and responsibilitly. But clearly not freedom from ignorance. I wonder if either the OP or the blue boat's skipper comes from a state that tests proficiency or gives licenses?

Instead, we have the OP's final captioned comment. Bet the J's captain said exactly the same thing, and with way more reason.

sail safely!
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Old 20-10-2014, 14:28   #78
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Re: COLREGS - Sailing in an anchorage or mooring field

Looking at the original video, it doesn't appear this is a channel at all, it's a mooring field. There seems to be plenty of room for the motoring boats to select another row of boats to travel between. The only boat with any "restricted maneuverability" is the boat under sail due to the wind direction "no-go zone" and its angle relative to the anchored boats (hold that thought).

It appears to me the sailing vessel waited to tack because tacking put them right in the path of the OP boat. Having just done that, they appear to be avoiding doing it again and are heading into the next row of boats. Plus, since they are the stand-on boat, they have an obligation to maintain course and speed to avoid creating a situation with the OP boat.

At the final moment when it is clear the black boat isn't going to follow COLREGS, it appears the sailing boats movement is restricted as it is stuck between the two anchored boats and the black boat relative to the wind direction, leaving it no choice but to tack back in front of the OP boat.

Of course, I wasn't there, I can only judge by what I see in the video. If you could take the video from an overhead drone next time, I think it might be easier to tell :-)
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Old 20-10-2014, 14:40   #79
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Re: COLREGS - Sailing in an anchorage or mooring field

Sometimes its just as much fun to drop the anchor and watch the goings on..
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Old 20-10-2014, 14:48   #80
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Re: COLREGS - Sailing in an anchorage or mooring field

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I think there are just some people who don't share well and must have their way.
This doesn't seem specific to any group of boaters, more to individuals.
^^ This. I can recall a number of times when other, needlessly aggressive sailors have insisted on ROW to push me off course, even to the point of overstanding their tacking mark, only to make a point. This happens even though a little courtesy and sharing could allow both boats to get home quicker. It's not limited to racers by a long stretch. I would even argue it's more prevalent among cruising types.
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Old 20-10-2014, 16:16   #81
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Re: COLREGS - Sailing in an anchorage or mooring field

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
...every sailboat race in US territorial waters should be permitted by the USCG.
Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
There are numerous other races mentioned, but no mention of restrictions of any sort.

In the US, every marine event in navigable water requires a permit. The Coast Guard can and does restrict navigation, more often for larger marine events in shipping areas. Specific events with navigation restrictions are listed as part of the federal register after the authorizing notice:

Title 33 Navigation & Navigable Waters
Chapter 1, Coast Guard, Department of Homeland Security
Subchapter G -- Regattas & Marine Parades (parts 100 to 100)
Part 100 -- Safety of Life on Navigable Waters (100.01 - 100.1309)
Section 100.35 -- Special Local Regulations
(a) The Commander of a Coast Guard District or Captain of the Port (COTP) as authorized by 33 CFR 1.05-1(i), after approving plans for the holding of a regatta or marine parade within his or her district or zone, is authorized to promulgate such special local regulations as he or she deems necessary to insure safety of life on the navigable waters immediately prior to, during, and immediately after the approved regatta or marine parade. Such regulations may include a restriction on, or control of, the movement of vessels through a specified area immediately prior to, during, and immediately after the regatta or marine parade.


Here's an example of restricted navigation...

33 CFR 100.119 - Newport-Bermuda Regatta, Narragansett Bay, Newport, RI
(b) Special local regulations.
(2) No person or vessel may enter, transit, or remain in the regulated area unless participating in the event or unless authorized by the Coast Guard patrol commander.



Where I usually race, we get permits for weekly racing, distance racing and regattas, and we don't get listed in the federal register. Coast guard or sheriff come out for regattas, tho not weekly races, and have occasionally told a boater to move. Boating spectators seem drawn to the turning marks.
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Old 20-10-2014, 16:28   #82
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Re: COLREGS - Sailing in an anchorage or mooring field

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In the US, every marine event in navigable water requires a permit.
This has not been my experience for small boat regattas. You posted authority for the USCG to restrict navigation during events, and I experienced this in SF Bay during the ACup. However, you did not post the requirement for a permit. I would be interested to see it.
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Old 20-10-2014, 17:00   #83
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Re: COLREGS - Sailing in an Anchorage or Mooring Field

We must be prudent mariners.
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Old 20-10-2014, 17:24   #84
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Re: COLREGS - Sailing in an anchorage or mooring field

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...the requirement for a permit.

Sounds like you haven't run a regatta yet.

From the coast guard regs are in the federal register.
33CFR100.01 Purpose and intent
(a) The purpose of the regulations in this part is to provide effective control over regattas and marine parades conducted on the navigable waters of the United States so as to insure safety of life in the regatta or marine parade area.

33CFR100.15 Submission of application
(a) An individual or organization planning to hold a regatta or marine parade which, by its nature, circumstances or location, will introduce extra or unusual hazards to the safety of life on the navigable waters of the United States, shall submit an application to the Coast Guard District Commander having cognizance of the area where it is intended to hold such regatta or marine parade. Examples of conditions which are deemed to introduce extra or unusual hazards to the safety of life include but are not limited to: An inherently hazardous competition, the customary presence of commercial or pleasure craft in the area, any obstruction of navigable channel which may reasonably be expected to result, and the expected accumulation of spectator craft.

Even in the backwaters where I often race, it'd be hard to argue that a sailing event won't result in extra hazards. And yes, the regs say what's to be included in the application. Google the above numbers, you'll get there.

Some states have regs that require permits. So sometimes applications can be done through a state marine board or parks department instead of through the coast guard. You're looking for a marine event permit. This has to be done some time ahead.
If you have to apply through the coast guard, the app has to be done a long time ahead.
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Old 20-10-2014, 18:00   #85
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Re: COLREGS - Sailing in an Anchorage or Mooring Field

There are eight criteria for when you need a permit, for sailboat races the first one is the most important... It requires a permit for any event "on or near navigable waters." This isn't rocket science, and they are free and easy to get. You just fill out the online form and it's automatically granted unless you need special resources (America's cup) or are doing some thing in a major waterway (America's cup).
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Old 20-10-2014, 18:23   #86
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Re: COLREGS - Sailing in an Anchorage or Mooring Field

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There are eight criteria for when you need a permit, for sailboat races the first one is the most important... It requires a permit for any event "on or near navigable waters." This isn't rocket science, and they are free and easy to get. You just fill out the online form and it's automatically granted unless you need special resources (America's cup) or are doing some thing in a major waterway (America's cup).
But it seems that your prior post was perhaps a bit overstated? Very very very few of the regatta permits (only the few really big ones like Bermuda or the AC) I see set up exclusion zones. Most simply say that "vessels should exercise extra caution". In which case regular colregs apply, and your race boats do not in fact have any extra privilege. I am a bit disturbed that you, a lawyer, running regattas, would not know/understand that.
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Old 20-10-2014, 18:23   #87
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Re: COLREGS - Sailing in an Anchorage or Mooring Field

Thanks. Very interesting. The last two posts are a little contradictory though. The one quoting the CFR does not require a permit for any event on or near navigable waters. I have not organized regattas but having participated in many and this surprises me. I would have assumed (but certainly could be wrong) that the small boat races (laser, JY15, lightnings, thistles, etc.) I most participated in were too casual to have obtained a permit. Maybe they did and got some kind of standing permit for weekly races, I don't know.

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Old 20-10-2014, 18:51   #88
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Re: COLREGS - Sailing in an Anchorage or Mooring Field

I just found this thread and find it quite amusing, particularly as I used to BE the finish line for the Annapolis Yacht Club Wednesday night races back when I lived aboard in Annapolis harbor in the '80s (my slip was at the end of the dock directly across from the AYC clubhouse deck).

Having the entire racing fleet blasting through the harbor under sail was just the usual Wednesday evening routine here. Things got REALLY interesting when the wind dictated a spinnaker run to the finish. The Spa Creek drawbridge is only about 200 feet upstream from the finish line, and the entire fleet piles up under sail in this 200' by 500' area while they drop their spinnakers. Woe to any unwary cruiser who allowed himself to be trapped in that mess!

I used to stand on the poop on Wednesday nights with my boathook fending off any milling-about racers who came too close. This happened quite often, as the end of my dock was a favorite place to drop off crew after the finish, a maneuver that involved sailing by the end of the dock close enough for the crewman to take a leap.

Interestingly enough, it wasn't really the racers who presented a problem when I was trying to maneuver my 45' cutter back into my slip... they were pretty predictable. It was the damned jetskis who presented a problem, buzzing about like gnats with no regard for -- or even knowledge of -- the right-of-way rules.

BTW, there is no "channel" involved in the mooring field in Annapolis harbor. The harbor ranges in width from about 500' at the bridge to about 1500' (it is the mouth of Spa Creek), and the water is deep right up to the shoreline. I see absolutely nothing stupid, illegal or irresponsible in the J-boat skipper's behavior. There was plenty of maneuvering room for vessels of that size. God help us if we can no longer sail out of a harbor!

Perhaps the OP is more used to the wide open spaces down there in the OBX.
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Old 20-10-2014, 19:19   #89
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Re: COLREGS - Sailing in an Anchorage or Mooring Field

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The last two posts are a little contradictory though. The one quoting the CFR does not require a permit for any event on or near navigable waters.
Don't know where you're seeing 'does not require a permit'.

Coast guard regs do require a permit. Coast guard does share the safety authority with some states, so some states do the marine event permit (this is also in the CFR).

Regular repeating events like weekly races can have a standing permit for up to a year.
The permits apps are online and quick do, some state permits require an ok from local authorities.
In part, the permit preserves your chosen event time/day/place on the water.

Seems any event in the US requires a permit from some authority somewhere.

We race dinghies, cats and keelboats. We restrict the marina and a particular hazard area during racing - DSQ.
In the places I've raced on the west coast, The racing has been away from marinas and moorings, and racers have been reminded not to impede shipping.
Interesting that Annapolis racing is through the mooring field.
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Old 20-10-2014, 19:44   #90
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Re: COLREGS - Sailing in an Anchorage or Mooring Field

For years I sailed an engine-less boat, I have also had brake-downs or a rope round the prop. These are just some reasons people in sail boats might actually sail as well as it being fun. A good skipper should be able to sail off a dock or mooring and powerboat skippers should know enough about sail boats to be able to accommodate them.
I DO agree that anyone organizing a RACE within an anchorage is just plain stupid and any skipper entering such an event has a strange notion of prudent seamanship but that is totally different from me sailing off the dock and passing down a channel.
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