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Old 09-01-2012, 14:33   #151
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Re: Chain versus rope scope?

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Originally Posted by jeremiason View Post
On my current boat, we have experienced winds up to 54 knots at anchor. At no time did I have to exceed 6 to 1 scope to keep from pulling on the anchor. I did ease the chain from 5 to 1 to 6 to 1 to keep from pulling on the anchor when the windless high 50 knots.
G'Day Tom,

Can you explain why you think that in a situation where the chain has lifted part of its length off the bottom there is no pull on the anchor?

In my experience this is completely untrue. I have been in the water watching an anchor dig itself into the bottom when there was a significant length of the chain lying on the bottom ahead of it. This seems to prove that there is indeed pull on the anchor... just as common sense dictates there should be.

I agree that having chain lying on the bottom is a good thing, that it both has helpful friction and keeps the angle of pull low, but to say that it keeps all strain off the anchor is not supportable.

I think that in this case, you are the one misleading the unknowing, not Nick or Dockhead.

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Old 09-01-2012, 15:07   #152
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Re: Chain versus rope scope?

Always fun to read these. Don't realy undersatnd how people believe that a heavier anchor, all chain, and a snubber isn't better than any other choice. Unless you are going to assume that the anchor didn't get set, in which case all bets are off (but the heaiver anchor and all chain are going to have a better chance of "fixing" this problem than the other choices in case you were in a hurry to dinghy in to the bar).)
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Old 09-01-2012, 16:18   #153
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Re: Chain versus rope scope?

I experience has been limited to the pacific NorthCoast of N.America. Not too much coral.

As I plan to head into the South Pacific for 2-5 years I am having to learn new tricks. I was talking to a pair of NZ cruisers and they had as amatter of course dived to check their anchor. They did mention that they where surprised at how little pressure was exerted on the anchor even in quite strong winds.( can't remember the # of Knots)

Chain is great but on my 35ft 9inches of boat I wonder how much I can carry up front? I think I will at least try to add another 60 or 100 ft. I hope those chain joiners are strong.
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Old 09-01-2012, 20:41   #154
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Re: Chain versus rope scope?

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Originally Posted by NorthPacific View Post
Chain is great but on my 35ft 9inches of boat I wonder how much I can carry up front? I think I will at least try to add another 60 or 100 ft. I hope those chain joiners are strong.
You have to carry what is proportional. Smaller boat, smaller stuff. Go with 1/4" chain, the Ultimate Strength of 7,800# which is around half the weight of your boat, and your not going to be picking it up.

That's part of the problem here is loading the front of a light weight boat (mine 16K#) down with chain and then plowing thru waves. Not good! One of the reasons I only use 60' of chain. I keep extra in the (dry) bilges for extreme situations, which can be shackled together if need be.

I've heard of people running the chain thru a pipe back closer to the center.
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Old 09-01-2012, 21:44   #155
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Re: Chain versus rope scope?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthPacific View Post
I experience has been limited to the pacific NorthCoast of N.America. Not too much coral.

As I plan to head into the South Pacific for 2-5 years I am having to learn new tricks. I was talking to a pair of NZ cruisers and they had as amatter of course dived to check their anchor. They did mention that they where surprised at how little pressure was exerted on the anchor even in quite strong winds.( can't remember the # of Knots)

Chain is great but on my 35ft 9inches of boat I wonder how much I can carry up front? I think I will at least try to add another 60 or 100 ft. I hope those chain joiners are strong.
Here's a data point: on our previous boat, a 36' IOR one-tonner with a pretty fine entry, we carried 280 ft of 3/8" chain plus a 44 lb anchor on the roller. Worked ok for over 85,000 miles. Would less weight have been better? Likely so, but we anchor >90% of the time and the security of stout ground tackle is more important to us than a slight reduction in pitching moment.

And FWIW, 1/4" chain seems too damn light for your usage. Doesn't leave much room for wear or abuse and would lead to issues with fitting shackles of adequate strength.

And once again, try an experiment: add say 150 lbs of something (water jugs, someone else's chain, whatever) to your bow and go sailing. See if the extra weight makes much difference. Theory is all very well, but a little empiricism for your specific application might well be an eye-opener for you.

Cheers,

Jim

PS - For all of those miles we had chain joiners in the rode. There have been endless discussions on them here on CF, and you might find a bit of research on this subject reassuring.
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Old 09-01-2012, 22:22   #156
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Re: Chain versus rope scope?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Here's a data point: on our previous boat, a 36' IOR one-tonner with a pretty fine entry, we carried 280 ft of 3/8" chain plus a 44 lb anchor on the roller. Worked ok for over 85,000 miles. Would less weight have been better? Likely so, but we anchor >90% of the time and the security of stout ground tackle is more important to us than a slight reduction in pitching moment.

And FWIW, 1/4" chain seems too damn light for your usage. Doesn't leave much room for wear or abuse and would lead to issues with fitting shackles of adequate strength.

And once again, try an experiment: add say 150 lbs of something (water jugs, someone else's chain, whatever) to your bow and go sailing. See if the extra weight makes much difference. Theory is all very well, but a little empiricism for your specific application might well be an eye-opener for you.

Cheers,

Jim

PS - For all of those miles we had chain joiners in the rode. There have been endless discussions on them here on CF, and you might find a bit of research on this subject reassuring.
Cheers for your imput. Knowing myself I have to have good ground tackle As we will be at anchor far more than at dockside. Thanks for taking the time to answer.
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Old 09-01-2012, 22:30   #157
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Re: Chain versus rope scope?

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Cheers,

Jim

PS - For all of those miles we had chain joiners in the rode. There have been endless discussions on them here on CF, and you might find a bit of research on this subject reassuring.
What type of joiners? C-links?
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Old 10-01-2012, 03:16   #158
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Re: Chain versus rope scope?

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Originally Posted by SailFastTri View Post
What type of joiners? C-links?
In short, yes, C-links. The better ones have SWL slightly better than standard grade chain. There are some much stronger ones available, but I'm unclear if they will pass through our windlass gypsy, or where one can readily buy them.

The earlier discussions on this subject here on CF had lots of detail and,of course, rhetoric.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 10-01-2012, 03:57   #159
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Re: Chain versus rope scope?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Here's a data point: on our previous boat, a 36' IOR one-tonner with a pretty fine entry, we carried 280 ft of 3/8" chain plus a 44 lb anchor on the roller. Worked ok for over 85,000 miles. Would less weight have been better? Likely so, but we anchor >90% of the time and the security of stout ground tackle is more important to us than a slight reduction in pitching moment.

And FWIW, 1/4" chain seems too damn light for your usage. Doesn't leave much room for wear or abuse and would lead to issues with fitting shackles of adequate strength.

And once again, try an experiment: add say 150 lbs of something (water jugs, someone else's chain, whatever) to your bow and go sailing. See if the extra weight makes much difference. Theory is all very well, but a little empiricism for your specific application might well be an eye-opener for you.

Cheers,

Jim

PS - For all of those miles we had chain joiners in the rode. There have been endless discussions on them here on CF, and you might find a bit of research on this subject reassuring.
Just thinking... I looked it up and 3/8" chain weighs 1.67 pounds per foot, so in the bow of your fine entry 36-foot boat you had 511 pounds of ground tackle up forward. That would have a significant impact on performance and trim in that size boat. 5/16" G4 is 1.1 pounds per foot and there's always the option for some degree of mixed rode, even if mostly chain.

I respectfully acknowledge that there is no such thing as "too much" anchor when a squall comes over the anchorage at 0-dark-hundred, but every decision involves trade-offs.

Given the limits of whatever weight you're willing to add I would rather concentrate weight in the anchor where it increases holding than in the rode.
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Old 10-01-2012, 05:40   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delmarrey

In Borocay, PI, the local government will not allow anchoring in the coral. The locals have set up floats (water bottles) that are tied off to large dead coral heads that they use (first come, first serve), which are made of a heavy 3 strand floating poly of some sort.

My plan for the S. Pac. is to carry a line with a rubber hose covering about 15' with a loop on one end. With that I can dive down and wrap that around a coral head w/o damaging the coral or the line.

I don't know how these anchor/rode wars get so heated. There are many ways of anchoring. What may be good for one situation may not be good for another. And the type of boat makes a difference as well. Some boats yaw and others pitch or roll. What may work on one boat may not work for another. Get to know your boat before heading out. And that's it!
Del - any time you touch the coral you damage it. As you note the locals have damaged a lot of dead coral and have set up semi permanent anchorages tying directly to coral heads. They are only tying up banka boats however not heavy cruisers. And of course they are the ones - almog with thousands of divers who have killed the coral in the first place.

Do your best to find the sandy bottom usually at the edge of the coral reef and dont tie off to the coral. It takes too long to grow back.
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:20   #161
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Re: Chain versus rope scope?

1. Tiea string between your hands
2. Hang a 5# weight from the string
3. You will feel a vertical pull on each of your hands of 2.5 # (and a horizontal pull of something lests say .1 #)
4. If you were to step on a scale you would way 5 # more
5. Pull, your hands apart using as much force as possible lets say a horizontal pull of 100#, the string would be "bar" tight and you would still have 2.5# of vertical force on each hand
6. If you were to step on a scale you would way 5 # more no matter how hard you pulled your hands apart

Pulling an anchor chain bar tight does not change the vertical component of the forces due to the weight of the chain; it only increases the horizontal forces. The chain still has weight that acts on the bow of the boat and anchor attachment.

I'll take my reply offline.
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Old 10-01-2012, 13:03   #162
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Re: Chain versus rope scope?

I can't add anything smart to the discussion except an anicdote:
I was anchored in Panama City, Panama on my Mantus Anchor and 120 feet of chain and the rest nylon (its a deep anchorage with large tidal swings and I didn't have enough chain at the time). One night after an eventful evening of bar hoping I returned home to find Coconut absent. As I found out later a large Panama Canal Cruise Boat motored in front of my bow and cut the line. Coconut was rescued by fellow cruisers, thank Gd.
From now on, I carry more chain.
Greg
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Old 10-01-2012, 13:17   #163
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Re: Chain versus rope scope?

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Originally Posted by GregKutsen View Post
I can't add anything smart to the discussion except an anicdote:
I was anchored in Panama City, Panama on my Mantus Anchor and 120 feet of chain and the rest nylon (its a deep anchorage with large tidal swings and I didn't have enough chain at the time). One night after an eventful evening of bar hoping I returned home to find Coconut absent. As I found out later a large Panama Canal Cruise Boat motored in front of my bow and cut the line. Coconut was rescued by fellow cruisers, thank Gd.
From now on, I carry more chain.
Greg
If that situation involved more chain, the cruise boat would have dragged your vessel and then it would have slammed into the side of the cruise boat.
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Old 10-01-2012, 13:27   #164
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Re: Chain versus rope scope?

You are right I should be thankful that I still have Coconut in any case. But the way I think about it at least than Panama Canal Boat would have had a damaged prop and the company would be responsible for my damages, the way it happened I almost lost the boat and no one to blame. In any regard it is not infrequent that boats get damaged when the mooring or anchor nylon line is accidentally cut by a propeller. Further, chain usualy will have more sag and is less likely to trip a prop.
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Old 10-01-2012, 13:46   #165
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Re: Chain versus rope scope?

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I do use a snubber rope that hooks to the cleat beside my windless and it is long enough to use on our winch.
Hello everyone, new here.

I am fascinated with the discussion and really have nothing to add except this.

If I understand it correctly, wbj, you're on a Gemini, and you use a snubber, and it sounds like you lay to just the one line, as it were.

It cannot be overstated that multihulls absolutely need to lay to a bridle.

Not trying to change the subject, and I'll go back to listening, but discussions of anchoring for monohulls really aren't as relevant to multihulls. The loads tend to be different - multihulls are generally lighter for same waterline length and multihulls also sail at anchor (if not laid to a bridle.)

that's all, just wanted to mention that to wbjammin. peace out.
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