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Old 12-09-2016, 19:16   #31
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Re: Carnival Cruise Liner Crushes Marina In Its Wake

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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Is that a Messina port regulation or some other port?


Pilots? With a few notable exceptions ( I believe Tampa may be one ) its a case of 'all care.. no responsibility' which is why you always write 'to master's orders and pilot's advice' in the bridge book.

Same with tugs... but more a case of 'no care no responsibility'

'But Cap'n, I just did what you said'
'When I asked you to 'push up easy' I didn't expect you to take a run at me from 50 metres out......' True story... big dent....

The windage on those big ships is something to behold and once its got ahold of you you are going to start living in interesting times.........

A dumb place to build a marina really......
Or a dumb place to park a cruise ship.

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Old 12-09-2016, 19:27   #32
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Re: Carnival Cruise Liner Crushes Marina In Its Wake

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Can you imagine you think you are safely berthed in a marina, and then the prop wash from a giant cruise ship destroys your boat? Carnival is lucky there were no people injured or killed in this incidence in Italy, but I suspect some lawsuits may be pending if they don't settle quickly and generously.

Not sure what the captain's role in this is or perhaps the pilot's. Something tells me I don't really want to be either right now.

Video Shows Carnival Cruise Liner Crush Marina In Its Wake | Huffington Post
i would be angry beyond imagination if my boat was one of the ones destroyed. that's terrible. don't they use tugs to move those ships when in close quarters?
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Old 12-09-2016, 20:15   #33
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Re: Carnival Cruise Liner Crushes Marina In Its Wake

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i would be angry beyond imagination if my boat was one of the ones destroyed. that's terrible. don't they use tugs to move those ships when in close quarters?
Whether to use tugs or not is the pilot's or master's call.

However in this case the incident happened about a kilometer from the cruise ship berth ( check it out on GE ), I can't imagine anybody still having tugs assisting when clearing the pier heads.

Somebody just failed to realise the wind ( quite strong on the stbd beam) was as strong as it was.....

There will be an internal inquiry and the lawyers will have a field day.
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Old 12-09-2016, 20:16   #34
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Re: Carnival Cruise Liner Crushes Marina In Its Wake

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Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff View Post
Or a dumb place to park a cruise ship.

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Take a look at Messina on GE......
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Old 12-09-2016, 20:26   #35
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Re: Carnival Cruise Liner Crushes Marina In Its Wake

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Figure a late fee of $250k/day for failing to pull out of port on time, and the total damage from the collision is reported as $250k... The risk from the ship operators side is well worth it. It's only 1/10 times you will crush the pier, it's 1/1 times you choose to depart late you will pay that fee.
What does the scenario look like if there is loss of life ? From a legal aspect.
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Old 12-09-2016, 22:13   #36
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Re: Carnival Cruise Liner Crushes Marina In Its Wake

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Originally Posted by reed1v View Post
Cruise liners do not want to pay for a pilot so this is what you get. Warwick Tompkins got his beautiful schooner crushed by a liner on the west coast years ago. Dumb captain refused a pilot and got caught in the currents. Ounce of prevention....
I thought in most ports with pilots that it was mandatory for a ship to have one on board?
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Old 12-09-2016, 22:28   #37
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Re: Carnival Cruise Liner Crushes Marina In Its Wake

Apparently these cruise ships cause a mini tsunami everytime they pass by, so I'm more inclined to say it's a dumb place to have a marina and a stupid place to keep your boat.

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Old 12-09-2016, 23:03   #38
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Re: Carnival Cruise Liner Crushes Marina In Its Wake

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I thought in most ports with pilots that it was mandatory for a ship to have one on board?
That is my experience. However you can , in Australia , get a 'Pilotage Exemption Certificate' upon demonstrating local knowledge and ship handling competence. In my home port ships 184 metres and over and tankers regardless of length have to take a pilot and you can not 'exercise' your exemption. Maybe that is why our ships were 181 metres.

Tugs or no tugs is the pilot or master's call and one of the port rules is that pilots are not allowed to own shares in tug companies.

Re marinas in dumb positions ... some years ago a company developed a marina in the Melbourne river down stream of the pre-existing main container dock. They have been whinging ever since about wash and how the speed limit should be reduced from the present 8 knots. Unfortunately 8 knots is 'dead slow' on many big box ships...slower than that and you lose steerage way... you can sort of see where this is heading....
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Old 14-09-2016, 18:07   #39
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Carnival Cruise Liner Crushes Marina In Its Wake


Holy smokes!
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Old 14-09-2016, 21:20   #40
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Re: Carnival Cruise Liner Crushes Marina In Its Wake

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What does the scenario look like if there is loss of life ? From a legal aspect.
Pretty much the same. In the US criminal liability it would be almost impossible to hold the pilot liable. The issue is the vessel is always in command of the captain, the pilot is only there to provide information.

So in order for the pilot to be liable... It would take a pretty odd fact situation where the simply providing of information could be construed as causing the accident. So... Maybe if something like the following...

Let's assume that the pilot knows of a rock snag that is unmarked (somehow), and not on the notice to Mariners, and intentionally advises the captain to drive right for it. As a result someone dies... If you could prove that this was the operative facts you could probably hold the pilot legally responsible... But even under these facts the ship owner (and the ship) would also be liable for any damage or accidents.


Think of it like this... The pilot is the functional equivilant of an interior designer who suggests things, but you make the final decision about what color to paint the room. Even if it's awful you were last person to ratify the decision. You may never hire the interior designer again, but you can't really sue them for not liking the finished product.
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Old 14-09-2016, 21:33   #41
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Re: Carnival Cruise Liner Crushes Marina In Its Wake

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That's the economic side of it, for sure... but wouldn't such an accident, caused by some poor decisions, be career enders for the captain and pilot?
Probably not. By the time someone becomes the captain of a huge cruise ship they should be some of the most experience Mariners on the planet. You don't entrust one of the most expensive ships in the world, carrying thousands of passengers (read huge liability), then sell that resume to the insurance company to bond a billion dollar replacement/removal/injury policy.

I can't say for sure since it isn't anything I deal with professionally, but I would be shocked if Carnival doesn't have the absolute best captains already.


Given that, no one accident isn't going to cause him to loose his license, assuming the investigations doesn't show anything untoward. It could wash out that he gets a commendation for not running the ship into the marina instead.
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