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Old 08-05-2014, 14:09   #46
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Re: Captain Damaged Neighboring Boat- Who is Responsible?

On a US boat, in US waters, the ability of a Captain to assume responsibility for a boat while he or she is in command is determined by one piece of paper.
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Old 08-05-2014, 14:15   #47
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Re: Captain Damaged Neighboring Boat- Who is Responsible?

boatman, he might very well be. That would depend on a number of factors.

The simplest analogy would be that the delivery captain is the same as a hired moving company.

You hire the movers, they take your stuff, and your stuff is pretty much their responsibility until it is delivered, as contracted. They get drunk and take it to Mexico when it was supposed to be delivered to Ontario? Ontario, California or Canada? That's gonna be their problem, yes.

Captains and movers are both regulated and again, yada yada. But both are contractors--not employees--as I understand it. And that brings about a whole different set of liabilities.

Easy enough to just send him a letter and tell him to pay the bill, or face collection. And then, I think Florida is one of the more hostile states, in that it will cost several hundred dollars to file a small claims suit against him. (Instead of the $25 or so that many jurisdictions ask.)

Can't do that to an employee. Can do that to a contractor.
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Old 08-05-2014, 14:56   #48
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Re: Captain Damaged Neighboring Boat- Who is Responsible?

Insurance for freelance Captains? - YachtForums.Com
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Old 08-05-2014, 15:06   #49
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pirate Re: Captain Damaged Neighboring Boat- Who is Responsible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
boatman, he might very well be. That would depend on a number of factors.

The simplest analogy would be that the delivery captain is the same as a hired moving company.

You hire the movers, they take your stuff, and your stuff is pretty much their responsibility until it is delivered, as contracted. They get drunk and take it to Mexico when it was supposed to be delivered to Ontario? Ontario, California or Canada? That's gonna be their problem, yes.

Captains and movers are both regulated and again, yada yada. But both are contractors--not employees--as I understand it. And that brings about a whole different set of liabilities.

Easy enough to just send him a letter and tell him to pay the bill, or face collection. And then, I think Florida is one of the more hostile states, in that it will cost several hundred dollars to file a small claims suit against him. (Instead of the $25 or so that many jurisdictions ask.)

Can't do that to an employee. Can do that to a contractor.
Ahah... your talking America.. I'm talking the rest of the world..
And.. tried and tested in a court of Law..
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Old 08-05-2014, 15:11   #50
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Re: Captain Damaged Neighboring Boat- Who is Responsible?

Lol you can't be serious the rest of the world courts.. what a joke..

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Old 08-05-2014, 15:21   #51
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Re: Captain Damaged Neighboring Boat- Who is Responsible?

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Lol you can't be serious the rest of the world courts.. what a joke..
That is the trouble with those Amurikans. Either they never leave their own country. Or do.
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Old 08-05-2014, 15:22   #52
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Re: Captain Damaged Neighboring Boat- Who is Responsible?

@ boatman61

"So.. if the boat suffers severe storm damage on a delivery in the middle of the Atlantic.. the skipper is liable.. his actions took it out there.."

If the skipper's actions which took it out there were reckless or negligent it might be reasonable to hold him liable. If he were required to hold insurance his record of such claims would be known - too many claims and his premium would put him out of business - and leave more work for the competent skippers out there.

and

"If the owner can hire me.. and can fire me at any stage of the voyage.. he's an employer in my book.."

In the UK at least an employer calculates an employee's income tax and other contributions and pays those taxes to the Inland Revenue etc. on the employee's behalf.
A self-employed contractor pays his own taxes.

Employers have many responsibilities to their employees. A UK employer can not fire an employee on a whim. Not without consequences.

A self-employed independent contractor decides how much to charge for his services. The employer decides the wage and the employee "takes it or leaves it."

I don't think delivery skippers are employees and I don't think most would really want to be employees.
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Old 08-05-2014, 15:25   #53
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Re: Captain Damaged Neighboring Boat- Who is Responsible?

Boatman, last time I checked a boating accident in Florida was very much considered under American jurisdiction.

You know, Florida is very close to the mainland US, and is one of the oldest US possessions. (VBG)
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Old 08-05-2014, 15:26   #54
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Re: Captain Damaged Neighboring Boat- Who is Responsible?

1) You never told us what the Captain told you when you told the Captain (geez sorry for that verbiage) there was a $1500 bill for damage he caused. What was his response? Did he man up and take responsibility or shrug it off and say "oops sorry"?
2) I don't know what you paid the Captain but did you try and deduct some or all of the $1500 from his bill?

These questions notwithstanding I agree with others. There are a LOT of ways to try to go after the Captain but in the end that will burn up a lot of your time and energy. Probably better to just eat it and let it go- unless you're up for a fight then by all means....

In construction contracting (my business) I would never ever even think about hiring an entity/person that wasn't licensed, bonded, and insured. Of course there are costs to do this but its just good business sense.
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Old 08-05-2014, 15:26   #55
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Re: Captain Damaged Neighboring Boat- Who is Responsible?

My old boat was hit 3 times in her own slip by 3 different boats. Not a single one of those fine individuals ever called me to take responsibility. The damage was serious in each case. Was I disgusted? You bet. Now, recently on the way back from the Yard, idora fooled me and we got up against the neighbors boat. Damage was done. Was I embarrassed? You bet. The next day I had to call them and take responsibility. Failure to get a line on a cleat in time cost me $800.00 bucks in labor and $250.00 in parts and I did at least half the work myself. Get a grip, man up, pay your bill. **** happens.
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Old 08-05-2014, 17:52   #56
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Re: Captain Damaged Neighboring Boat- Who is Responsible?

Dock head,

Hired captains are statutory employees of the vessel. In fact they are also officers of the vessel. It does get a little tricky when you are dealing with wet charters to contracting officers and third party staffing companies, but I highly doubt that this has ever come up in the realm of private yachts.
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Old 08-05-2014, 18:23   #57
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pirate Re: Captain Damaged Neighboring Boat- Who is Responsible?

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@ boatman61

Employers have many responsibilities to their employees. A UK employer can not fire an employee on a whim. Not without consequences.
Well they got round that with Zero Hours contracts... don't have to fire one any more.. just don't call them.. and the contract precludes one from working for anyone else.. so the employee is forced to quit.. employer wins.. Gov wins as in quitting the ex-worker forfeits benifets and does not appear in the jobless stats
A self-employed independent contractor decides how much to charge for his services. The employer decides the wage and the employee "takes it or leaves it."
That works both ways on the take it or leave it..
I don't think delivery skippers are employees and I don't think most would really want to be employees.
Sorry mate.. its splitting hairs.. if some one is paying you to do a job.. your his employee.. no matter how you'd like to paint it..
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Old 08-05-2014, 18:40   #58
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Re: Captain Damaged Neighboring Boat- Who is Responsible?

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Sorry mate.. its splitting hairs.. if some one is paying you to do a job.. your his employee.. no matter how you'd like to paint it..
Not even close.
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Old 08-05-2014, 19:48   #59
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Re: Captain Damaged Neighboring Boat- Who is Responsible?

"if some one is paying you to do a job.. your his employee"
And again, that's simply not true under US law. There are specific criteria that define "employee" versus other status in US law, which is the only relevant law in this case. There are specific guidelines, regulations, and rulings from state and federal labor departments, tax departments, and courts that all pretty much say "this is an employee/employer relationship" and "this is not".

I would expect that hiring a captain for a vessel is not at all the same as hiring someone for the specific and limited purpose of transporting a vessel on a much more limited delivery trip. Perhaps not. That might also vary, depending on how the hiring compared to the specifics of labor and tax law, and the contract. None of which we know.
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Old 08-05-2014, 20:14   #60
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pirate Re: Captain Damaged Neighboring Boat- Who is Responsible?

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"if some one is paying you to do a job.. your his employee"
And again, that's simply not true under US law. There are specific criteria that define "employee" versus other status in US law, which is the only relevant law in this case. There are specific guidelines, regulations, and rulings from state and federal labor departments, tax departments, and courts that all pretty much say "this is an employee/employer relationship" and "this is not".

I would expect that hiring a captain for a vessel is not at all the same as hiring someone for the specific and limited purpose of transporting a vessel on a much more limited delivery trip. Perhaps not. That might also vary, depending on how the hiring compared to the specifics of labor and tax law, and the contract. None of which we know.
And here we are talking US state and federal law.. as opposed to International Maritime law..
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