Can sailing upwind in 20 knots be fun?

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Tessellate

I've observed surprisingly few cruising boats sail upwind (in any condition), and only a very small number sail upwind in 20 knots (true wind) or more.

This is understandable, since sailing upwind in higher winds and short, steep waves - in sounds or straits where you have to tack every 20-30 minutes - is difficult and uncomfortable work. And a typical cruising boat often has only 2 crew, you and a partner.

But surely some people do it? What I'm wondering is does anyone actually enjoy it and find it relatively comfortable? And if so, what did you do (for your boat or your skills) that made it something you could consider fun?

As a coastal cruiser I sail upwind in 20 knots out of necessity when I have to get back. It's more "fun" in 12 knots though.

In 20 knots on my boat, I cannot point worth a crap because I'm sailing in a 20 mile wide bay and the ocean waves mix with bay waves which are closely spaced and steep. (and the boat simply doesn't point well)

I sail the boat much the same though. Set the autopilot after I get things set the way I want unless I'm really in a hurry then I'll steer by hand

The boat lays in there well regardless of whether it's blowing 20 knots or 12 knots because it's narrow, heavy, and has a full keel.

I singlehand and sail a Bristol 27.


I got the skills from racing. (15 years) Most all buoy races start with an upwind leg with winds up to about 20 knots or so. You don't get to choose the direction you want to sail, you have to sail upwind to the A mark first usually, and the line can be crowded with 20-30 other boats. In beachcat racing, boats will "sit" on the line in those winds the last minute or so "holding" the boat there with the sails and tiller for a got starting position

[2Wind]

This time last year I sailed Brisbane to Lord Howe (Tasman Sea). We sailed due east for 48 hours on a tight STBD tack to Middleton Reef (315NM) and then 20 hrs due south to Lord Howe (120NM).

Day one was AWS 30-35kts (7-8kts SOG) 2 reefs in the main and 70% genoa. It was an ordeal! Most of the crew were seedy, quiet, and in endurance mode. It was the roughest conditions I had experienced with the wave period being shorted than expected from the ocean depth with plenty of green water over the bows (but not over the flybridge!). Several days like that would be really tough to endure....
Day two saw 28-30kts AWS with one reef shaken out. Whether due to improving constitution, a slightly kinder sea state or the combination of the two, this was when the "holiday" began. It was great. The crew were happy, food and beverages started to flow and smiles replaced the former grim faces. The difference in experience was uncanny. Days of those conditions would be very bearable.
Day 3, on the port tack saw 25-28kts AWA with all crew very comfortable and easily coping with the rigors of sea life.

So my take is that on my boat in 30+ knots periods beyond a day would be hard to take. I would also like to say that motoring to windward in 25+kts (in a L440) is less comfortable than sailing. You really can't comfortably motor directly into the wind and sea without slamming so you tend to steer off the wind to find the most comfortable angle by which time you are on a course you could achieve with the sails up. The sails significantly reduce the sharp movement of the cat, achieve a slight heal which creates comfort and stability in both fore and aft as well as lateral axes. Boat speed is also better with the sails up. Whether reefed up or otherwise I'll be sailing averaging 7-7.5kts into the wind, or 5.5-6.0kts on one engine. So why not sail?

BTW, the only time I've had water ingress into the forward cabins was on Day one (above) - still don't really know how it got in - but probably at the join between top and bottom halves near the trampoline nets.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Sailing to windward in 20kts can be/is great fun.. when day sailing, coastal long w/end trips.. but 4,000nm across an ocean of it tends to take the shine off a bit..

This is part of what I was getting at above even when only crossing a 20 mile bay.

It's much more "fun" to cross with 12 knots on the nose than 20 as you can point much better and not get blown across to the other side of the bay. (and pushed by waves)

Old, short, full keel cruising boats simply will not point like a deep fin keel racing boat even with a new main etc.

I've crossed against 22 knots but still had to use the motor to help me point after I was blown/sailed into protected waters. It was too rough to use the outboard the first 4-5 hours due to wave height and period. (the motor won't stay in the water)


Also, had the wave heights not decreased over on the side of the bay further to windward so I could motor sail and point better, I would have had to find a sheltered anchorage up a river or creek to wait out the wind because I wouldn't have been able to sail or motor back to my slip. You have to plan ahead on these old boats in certain situations

[Sandero]

I think this depends on many factors... I've done enough of this to know what we're in for. It's not fun for hours on end... but once you get the sails reefed and trimmed properly, it's mostly a matter of dealing with the sea state. If there are large or confused seas it's not my kind of fun. But if the seas are OK (relative term) and the boat settles in it's tolerable.

I like a dry sail without foulies and this becomes difficult as wind pipes up and seas are steep and have white caps.

We used to beat into a 20 SW returning from out east to our mooring in Greenport or Dering hbr Shelter Island. Current there makes this either a lot worse or a bit helpful.

Sailing fun and comfort to me are mostly related to the sea state... you can trim and steer to deal with the wind, but dealing with the waves is harder.

If we are wanting to get somewhere sooner rather than later we'll motor sail. I've almost never motored into the wind without the mainsail.

We'll weather the weather whatever the weather, whether we like it or not!

[Dockhead]

A great question!

Getting a decent distance upwind in that kind of wind and in open sea is a huge challenge.

There are a lot of tensions going on:

1. Reef down to get the boat on her feet, but then you get a lot more leeway and lose upwind angle. It's a real struggle to maintain VMG to windward. So often you're choosing to have a bit more sail up than you would like to, just to keep from reefing them to the point where they start producing a ton of drag.

2. Bear away a little to meet the head seas at a more benign angle, and get your reefed down sails drawing again, but then you lose your angle.


This is really relevant to me because every year I have 1500 mile trip back from Finland to the UK against prevailing winds and in some pretty tough waters including the North Sea. This year in particular I did a lot of tacking -- tacking all the way across the Central Baltic from Estonia to SE Sweden.


Is it fun? Not on a long passage. I really don't think you can call it "fun". It is hard. You have a hard boat motion, lot of bashing through head seas, a lot of heel (at 20 TWS), and hard work trimming sail and helming. Is it satisfying? Ah, that's a different question. It's very demanding of both the boat, especially the sails, and the crew -- really separates the men from the boys.

Concerning the boat -- really good sails make all the difference here. Also -- not having too much sail area. Big rigs designed for the Med, with SA/D of 20 or more, suck in these conditions. The more compact rig with less windage, which has a higher wind range before you need to reef, also high aspect headsails like my new blade jib, help enormously in these conditions.

[44'cruisingcat]

On a lake, it's awesome. 11 knots at 30' apparent. Great fun.


At sea, not so much.

[sartorst]

I prefer hand steering when close hauled but that is a wet place to be at 20 knots. Fun ? not for long! After a few days of no good food and no way to do anything that requires 2 hands I get grumpy
Everyone has personal limits after 3 days I need 3 things ,sleep, good food ,shower Any one the three will extend that limit but preferably all 3

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Well I am in the minority but I prefer my hank-on headsails. I know roller furling is sinfully convenient, but they do have a few things working against them when it comes to performance esp. upwind. I have heard of roller furling reefing reasonably well for upwind, but I have never sailed with the more modern designs. The older ones, yes, and they were not so great. And then if the sail is older, blown out, then it's really not going to perform well. One thing, furling headsails have clews cut high to furl well, but that lets so much air below the headsail it loses a lot of upwind performance that way too. Still I think you should do a little better than 60 or 70 degrees. Not sure what you are referring to with the luff and fill. How old is the genoa? . . . .

I agree completely -- in these conditions, a hanked-on jib of exactly the right size will be night and day compared to a reefed roller furling jib. Totally different ballgame.

[kmacdonald]

I'm going to let you in on a secret, but please don't tell anyone else. Modern fin keeled sailboats with hanked-on headsails can beat to weather in a manner that the old full keeled barges could only dream about. As far as the cats, they might as well start the engine or just stay home.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

. . . As far as the cats, they might as well start the engine or just stay home.

This should get the cat guys stirred up.

This is not true, but I'll let them tell you about it

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

This should get the cat guys stirred up.

This is not true, but I'll let them tell you about it

Yes, I'm sure they will show up with some remedial excuse.

[Kenomac]

It depends on the size and weight of the boat. Ours really gets going in 15 knots plus, and at twenty knots is when we put in our first reef.

[svHyLyte]

On our boat in such conditions, we've a single tight reef in the main, tight vang, the traveler let down about 15", a full 135 with the sheet lead shifted aft about 18" from neutral and the leach line eased, the back stay tightened and the boat heeled down to 15º-20º and going like a scalded cat--8-9 knts. At speed the boat gets very stable with only a few degrees of rudder and steers quite easily. The longest we've had to carry the rig was about 20 hours on a race to Key West. The only difficulty was making meals, which all had to be "one-pot" served in bowls. Fortunately, before we travel, my (much) better half pre-prepares a lot of things in vacuum sealed bags that can be zapped in a few minutes in the microwave oven so we didn't/don't have much trouble in that department. Much longer than a day or so would become tiresome but, fortunately, we've been spared that. The longest, toughest, trip we had to endure was a run from Oceanside up to Long Beach in SoCal. We had to tack off 5-10 miles from the coast to get out of the short steep seas which were a pain in the neck and making everyone queezy.

FWIW...

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

On a lake, it's awesome. 11 knots at 30' apparent. Great fun.


At sea, not so much.

This is what I was used to racing 300 lb beach cats on lakes and in protected waters for 15 years. Your reward for doing the upwind leg in a race in these conditions is

the downwind leg with the spinnaker up on a singlehanded cat going about 23-25 knots watching for wind gusts coming in from behind and steering down so you won't pitchpole

now ahead 11 years it's 60-80 degrees off the wind trying to point with the ole full keeler against wind, steep waves, and tide/current ..........but the ride is much more enjoyable almost peaceful compared to a beachcat in 20 knots

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Yes, I'm sure they will show up with some remedial excuse.

Or some true information which is beyond your experience