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Old 28-10-2019, 11:33   #106
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Re: Can a ship tow a sail boat?

A large ship will be making mega knots, way above the hull speed of most sailing vessels . Likely the large commercial ship has schedules to keep, off load and then on-load new cargo, etc.

At higher speed the sailing vessel will produce a bow wave and a stern wave, and sink lower and lower into the water and then sail itself under the surface of the ocean . End of crew, end of vessel .

Also, the vessel was found still afloat and later ravaged for its gear, electronics, parts, etc .

What was the problem with the vessel ? The OP says they were pumping for days, due to a leaking prop shaft. However, the vessel in calm waters seemed to be floating on its lines. Looked in good shape. sad to see her abandoned at sea. Must have broke the heart of the owner.

The large ship could have given them more fresh water....did the sailing vessel have extra fresh water containers that could be filled as well as the vessels fresh water tanks ?

Could they have left the transmission in neutral and charged up the batteries, and sailed the vessel under sail. Although the winds looked pretty calm at the time of rescue .

Sad ending to a cruising dream....hopefully, they had insurance, and able to renew their cruising plans with a new boat.


When ever we have seen a vessel being towed it is usually at a slow speed .

Main thing, is that if the vessel was in extremis, the crew was rescued and the skipper acknowledged that .

If memory serves me correctly, I believe that some of the old clipper ships rounding the horn would try to break passage records, and would be making very high speeds and sail the boat into and under the surface . Sea stories of old sailor men .
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Old 28-10-2019, 12:12   #107
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Re: Can a ship tow a sail boat?

In my opinion the owner didn’t seem to have that much interest in saving his boat. I am sure the engineer of that ship could have provided them with something to stem the leak plus plenty of drinking water. Probably materials also to rig a temporary rudder. Seas looked calm, get in the water and figure it out. Folks, always on a voyage carry some sort of leak stemming materials.
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Old 28-10-2019, 12:17   #108
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Re: Can a ship tow a sail boat?

YES, it can to a point. Got a tow for my 34' Coronado many years ago to get out of the way of a 100kt storm in the Gulf of Alaska going from Seward to Cross Sound. With some help from many dead Presidents an arrangement was made. I used 5/8 poly going from both main sheet wenches, the four main cleats, and the anchor windless all meeting at the bow in one loop which was situated 2' below the bow by having the lines from the wenches and rear cleats tight outside the hull below the tow rail. A 400' line was dragged into us and secured to the big loop. Three days at 10-12 kts was one hell of a ride. The big problem in 20' seas was the crab boat pulled us through the waves near the bottom of the trough requiring 3000 gph of continuous pumping and a few 5 gal buckets an hour to keep the floor boards from floating. When there's a will there's a way.
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Old 28-10-2019, 12:19   #109
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Re: Can a ship tow a sail boat?

It can be tough to rig a rudder at sea, but yeah, I agree one should be ready for that. And I think most boats can be sailed and steered to some degree without s rudder. In our own case we had two points of sail pretty much nailed down, the problem was one took us over shoals and the other to some disputed islands. Still we were able to make it work before the tow came along.
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Old 28-10-2019, 12:33   #110
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Re: Can a ship tow a sail boat?

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A reason for a minor modification if you go Blue-Water-Cruising. A lifting eye on the cabin roof approximately above CoG, maybe with quick-fit (so they don't generally get in the way) wire-rope to the hull or strong-point ? I know it would be something that you don't expect to use, but the same goes for an EPIRB

Most ships don't have their own cranes.
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Old 28-10-2019, 14:41   #111
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Re: Can a ship tow a sail boat?

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Originally Posted by Jdege View Post
Saw this, yesterday.

https://youtu.be/uJHRzqB-TZI

ROTFLMAO! Huge tanker? No, a tug and barge, not that it matters. Major damage? LOL it was a half rotten old wooden samson post full of screw holes. No damage to the boat other than the samson post, which needed replacing anyway. Guy didn't have a clue. Didn't try to kedge or careen. Then, he throws a line to a stranger on a barge, with his end made fast to... basically nothing. If it had held, even money it would have ripped his keel off. Well, actually the line would have parted first, I think, but you never know.


But as for the topic, first of all most ships do not travel at 14 knots. 16 to 20, more like it. Some tankers and bulkers will go that slow, even slower. RoRo, container, etc are usually way faster than 14kts.


You never know. it could work, depending on how you make the tow line fast. I would want a nylon strap around the transom or better, behind the keel, with a girth strap forward of the keel securing the towing strap/bridle one leg to the other with enough slack that the attachment points for the girth on the bridle are just below the deck edge, and another strap passing across the deck and attached to the same two points on the tow bridle. Then the two legs joined to the towing warp (the boat's anchor chain would be great, both chains if there is a second one) a few feet forward of the bow with a snubber to prevent it going under the boat. The catenary of the anchor chain would be helpful in absorbing shock and keeping the pull lower.



This would have to all be made completely ready before rescue. A ship will wait if necessary to rescue persons. It will not wait to salvage property for very long.



Any failure in the tow rigging, and the boat is lost. Nobody on the ship is going to stand watch on the stern of the ship all day and night. Nobody is on the boat to notice chafe or shifting of the bridle arrangement. Something breaks, nobody will even notice.



FWIW, I don't believe I EVER sailed with a Captain who would seriously consider taking a sailboat in tow. Ships simply do not do that, generally. You would be better off offering a few $K to some fishing boat for a tow to a nearby port. Or a tug or a yacht.
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Old 28-10-2019, 14:41   #112
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Re: Can a ship tow a sail boat?

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Originally Posted by guyrj33 View Post
to rephrase the original question.

How does a sailboat with a displacement hull behave when exceeding hull speed under tow?
The faster a displacement hull goes above it's hull speed (determined by physics), the lower it begins to ride in the water. In other words the waterline gets higher and higher. Apply more power still...and the lower and lower it goes. If enough power is available AND continues to be applied? The hull will be towed completely under -- and sink.

It was rumored in the old days of the very large square riggers (think Cutty Sark sized) that indeed some of them were not able to reduce sail quickly enough in violent storms and literally sank beneath the waves because they were, as they called it, "sailed under".
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Old 28-10-2019, 14:51   #113
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Re: Can a ship tow a sail boat?

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A container ship might have $100 million in cargo onboard (who knows? containers packed with Mercedes). I don't think they really care about a $30,000 sailboat.

They don't put Mercedes or any other cars in containers. They are shipped via RO-RO (Roll-On, Roll-Off) ships, lashed individually to the car decks. 4,000 cars is not an unusual load. You do the math. Only rarely would a car be containerized. It is inefficient.



Quite right about not being concerned about a $30k sailboat, though. They will be happy to rescue people in peril. Traditional regard by all mariners for other mariners cause you never know when it will be your turn.
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Old 28-10-2019, 15:07   #114
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Re: Can a ship tow a sail boat?

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Modern ships apparently can't slow down enough to tow a sailboat at a survivable speed. Don't know what their lowest speed is but they have to have a tug pulling backwards against the forward thrust of the ship to slow down enough to meet speed requirements in SF Bay.

What appears to be a tug pulling backward is usually actually just a tug made up for docking and actually being towed by his hawser out of convenience for the moment until his services are required. When a tug is actually pulling the ship aft, it is usually in order to increase sideways thrust of the ship's rudder by allowing an ahead bell without increasing speed through the water. When switching from ahead to astern, a ship's engine is stopped and restarted in the opposite direction. There is no reversing gear. And you only have a limited amount of start air so a limited number of starts available until the compressors can catch up. So sometimes the tug or tugs made up aft can be used instead of an astern bell.



Most ships are quite capable of under 5kt speed at Dead Slow Ahead. I have been in and out of SF bay many times, and there was no concern about the ship not being able to stay at or below prudent, safe, or required speed. Except in extreme conditions, any ship can be steered by a competent helmsman at Dead Slow Ahead. When conditions actually ARE extreme, the tugs are ready to assist. immediately so if they are already made fast.
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Old 28-10-2019, 15:07   #115
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Re: Can a ship tow a sail boat?

I remember the coast guard towing a capsized sailboat one time. It destroyed the boat. They had no concern for the boat once the people were rescued.
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Old 28-10-2019, 15:18   #116
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Re: Can a ship tow a sail boat?

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Round rocks skip if they're going fast enough. And that boat will plane on its side.

Cannonballs, too. They are solid iron, BTW.
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Old 28-10-2019, 15:46   #117
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Re: Can a ship tow a sail boat?

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Most ships don't have their own cranes.

Breakbulk ships do. Heavylifts do. Many tankers do, though these will not be very powerful. And all ships have stores cranes, though most would be too small to hoist a yacht on deck. Most container ships have cranes, though it would be quite an undertaking to make a container crane ready to make just one lift. And then there would be the question of where to put it down and lash it. HINT: you don't sit any object on the top of a container unless all the weight is borne by the corners.


In anything but near perfect conditions, no crane would be used at sea, though.
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Old 28-10-2019, 16:22   #118
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Re: Can a ship tow a sail boat?

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Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster View Post
ROTFLMAO! Huge tanker? No, a tug and barge, not that it matters. Major damage? LOL it was a half rotten old wooden samson post full of screw holes. No damage to the boat other than the samson post, which needed replacing anyway. Guy didn't have a clue. Didn't try to kedge or careen. Then, he throws a line to a stranger on a barge, with his end made fast to... basically nothing. If it had held, even money it would have ripped his keel off. Well, actually the line would have parted first, I think, but you never know.


But as for the topic, first of all most ships do not travel at 14 knots. 16 to 20, more like it. Some tankers and bulkers will go that slow, even slower. RoRo, container, etc are usually way faster than 14kts.


You never know. it could work, depending on how you make the tow line fast. I would want a nylon strap around the transom or better, behind the keel, with a girth strap forward of the keel securing the towing strap/bridle one leg to the other with enough slack that the attachment points for the girth on the bridle are just below the deck edge, and another strap passing across the deck and attached to the same two points on the tow bridle. Then the two legs joined to the towing warp (the boat's anchor chain would be great, both chains if there is a second one) a few feet forward of the bow with a snubber to prevent it going under the boat. The catenary of the anchor chain would be helpful in absorbing shock and keeping the pull lower.



This would have to all be made completely ready before rescue. A ship will wait if necessary to rescue persons. It will not wait to salvage property for very long.



Any failure in the tow rigging, and the boat is lost. Nobody on the ship is going to stand watch on the stern of the ship all day and night. Nobody is on the boat to notice chafe or shifting of the bridle arrangement. Something breaks, nobody will even notice.



FWIW, I don't believe I EVER sailed with a Captain who would seriously consider taking a sailboat in tow. Ships simply do not do that, generally. You would be better off offering a few $K to some fishing boat for a tow to a nearby port. Or a tug or a yacht.
If you've followed their channel, they're just getting started.

Neither one knows what they're doing, yet.

Which is probably why they're cruising French canals instead of sailing the North Sea.
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Old 28-10-2019, 17:18   #119
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Re: Can a ship tow a sail boat?

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Originally Posted by Lihuedooley77 View Post
At higher speed the sailing vessel will produce a bow wave and a stern wave, and sink lower and lower into the water and then sail itself under the surface of the ocean . End of crew, end of vessel .
Quote:
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The faster a displacement hull goes above it's hull speed (determined by physics), the lower it begins to ride in the water. In other words the waterline gets higher and higher. Apply more power still...and the lower and lower it goes. If enough power is available AND continues to be applied? The hull will be towed completely under -- and sink.
Where does this belief come from? Have any of you actually seen a sailboat "sail under"? Rumours of square riggers going under - are you serious? I have seen displacement ships above hull speed, and can say that I've not observed any bodily sinkage and definitely no hole opens up below them. Even in the OP's video, the sailboat likely capped its hull-speed and wildly slewed over on (imho) its way towards tipping over and skipping across the surface on its side when the tow-rope mercifully parted - didn't see it start to sink though.
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Old 28-10-2019, 17:59   #120
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Can a ship tow a sail boat?

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Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster View Post
Cannonballs, too. They are solid iron, BTW.


I’m WWII large bombs were “skip bombed” into ships, and the Brits even built rather large and unusual huge barrel bombs that were skipped across the water to bust dams with, one of Barns Wallace’s Bombs I believe.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skip_bombing
The video is cool if your into that kind of thing
https://youtu.be/k-kx2Vpvxk4
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