Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 14-06-2016, 09:54   #31
Registered User

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,972
Re: Can a fireman force you to abandon your boat?

Determining when government "advice" should turn into government "force" is never easy. It's silly to suggest this is part of some government take over.

In the US, it's been happening since before the revolution - the "Boston Massacre" for example. The British soldiers were defended by the patriot and future president John Adams of the use of excess force.

In the OP's case, no force was used or even suggested. "I'm a fireman" could have been intended as a statement of qualification to help not of police power. And "I'll give you 10 minutes" could simply be "I'll be back in 10 minutes to see if you need help".

I'm not so naive to think government officials don't sometimes abuse their power. But I'd give the guy the benefit of the doubt here.
__________________

__________________
CarlF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 09:56   #32
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Re: Can a fireman force you to abandon your boat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
But, how much does your average firefighter (one does need to be PC in the terminology ) know about boats? Would they understand a boat might have diesel or gasoline on board, propane tanks, an enclosed space or other factors that could make a boat fire safer or usually more dangerous?
This is my thought also. He's a fireman...big deal. There is no indication that he knows anything about boating. The vessel was nestled into soft sand. the OP could easily tell this. More over the OP knew his vessel and how to work on it quickly. No telling if the fireman knew anything about boats or going aground. It sounds like he was over-reacting to a situation. Fear and lack of knowledge will do that.
__________________

__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 10:09   #33
Registered User
 
Sea Dreaming's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Whoo! Finally made it back to Mexico!
Boat: Cheoy Lee Offshore 38
Posts: 1,450
Re: Can a fireman force you to abandon your boat?

It seems to me he should have been asked about his authority. A professional would be able to state to federal or local law that would give him authority.

If he cant state with confidence what law would give him authority, he is just blowing smoke.

You are on your boat. Where was he and how did he propose to do anything about you in 10 minutes?
Realistically, unless he is already prepared to do whatever he is vaguely hinting he will do, there us nothing he could actually do.
__________________
If toast always lands butter side down, and cats always land on their feet, what would happen if you strapped toast to a cat's back and dropped it? - Steven Wright
Sea Dreaming is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 10:24   #34
Registered User
 
Manos1955's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Thessalonki Greece
Boat: Westerly Centaur 26
Posts: 153
Send a message via Skype™ to Manos1955
Re: Can a fireman force you to abandon your boat?

No one but the captain has the authority to order abandon ship period
And the captain will decide if he stays with the sinking or not
__________________
Manos1955 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 10:42   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,105
Re: Can a fireman force you to abandon your boat?

Firemen do not have jurisdictional authority on navigable waters. Coast Guard does. EOM. Interestingly, the CG does have police authority on land as well, but need to call the regular law enforcement group nearby to actually lock someone up. Yes, they can issue speeding tickets even. Firemen, no. That is why at a fire, the police are necessary for ensuring public order. Think you encountered a drunk,a thief, or just a regular lunatic.
__________________
reed1v is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 11:14   #36
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29° 49.16’ N 82° 25.82’ W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,388
Re: Can a fireman force you to abandon your boat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
I feel I need to say this - it was a joke. Guess it went wrong.
Your fault. You forgot to put a smiley face in the original post so all of us slow learners could figure out there was humor involved.

__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 11:19   #37
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,243
Re: Can a fireman force you to abandon your boat?

There was a boat in a similar position in the Oakland Estuary recently. The USCG gave the passengers a ride to safety, but the skipper stayed aboard while attempts were made to tow the boat off. Unless you are in immediate danger, I would have thought that this approach is the appropriate one.

Were you on a falling tide or rising one?
__________________
Bristol 31.1, SF Bay.
MarkSF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 11:19   #38
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29° 49.16’ N 82° 25.82’ W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,388
Re: Can a fireman force you to abandon your boat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manos1955 View Post
No one but the captain has the authority to order abandon ship period
And the captain will decide if he stays with the sinking or not
Not so with US vessels and the US Coast Guard. See my earlier post. The captain of a US fishing vessel was ordered to abandon ship by the USCG. The vessel then stayed afloat and finally required gun fire from the CG to sink.

The the owners sued but the courts in the US found in favor of the USCG and determined they had the legal right to order a crew to abandon ship and to enforce that order if necessary.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 11:21   #39
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 6,066
Re: Can a fireman force you to abandon your boat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gamayun View Post
Strange. Wonder if he was going to call salvage rights on your vessel once you "abandoned" it....
That is an interesting thought. I was leaning toward the small man syndrome until your thought.
__________________
Cadence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 11:21   #40
Registered User

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,972
Re: Can a fireman force you to abandon your boat?

The Perfect Storm example is also not as simple as suggested

When the CG arrived, the Satori had been knocked down twice. Their sails were so damaged that they had to motor - and a Westsail 32 does not motor well in good conditions. The life raft had been lost overboard. Only the captain was experienced offshore and he had no help. The two women crew were too panicked to help operate the boat. Look at the pictures below.

The CG had received a Mayday. There's dispute as to whether the Mayday was authorized by the owner but that's doesn't make the Mayday invalid. The moment a Mayday is issued, the "voyage" is over. It is a call to save lives with no further regard for the vessel or cargo. If you want to save your boat - call PAN.

The vessel was CG documented and the owner held a CG issued captain's license. The owner was not required to have these to operate the boat. Since the CG issued these, they are fully in their rights to revoke them. The owner says he followed the CG instructions to abandon partly because he did not want to lose his CG Captain's license.

Cape Hatteras is a very dangerous place in late October. Storms come out of nowhere. Many more ships and lives have been lost in Northeasters in those waters than hurricanes. Satori was only 50 miles out of Portsmouth VA when he received a NOAH forecast for a Northeaster with 30 knot winds. He had time and a fair wind to turn and run back to Portsmouth.

While not intentional, that bad weather decision became part of the tragic string of events that led to the death of a CG swimmer and possibly the failure to reach the crew of the Andrea Gail in time. I'd have some trouble sleeping at night.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2016-06-14 at 12.56.53 PM.jpg
Views:	127
Size:	68.3 KB
ID:	126161   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2016-06-14 at 12.57.14 PM.png
Views:	122
Size:	247.8 KB
ID:	126162  

__________________
CarlF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 11:43   #41
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,940
Re: Can a fireman force you to abandon your boat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manos1955 View Post
No one but the captain has the authority to order abandon ship period
And the captain will decide if he stays with the sinking or not
In the US this is not true. The USCG has the option, in some case the obligation to deme a vessel so unsutable for the voyage that it cannot continue. At which point they can prohibit departure under pain of criminal prosecution, or forcibly remove anyone on the vessel.

But this power is only used in the rarest of circumstances and the standard is exceedingly difficult to meet. The two examples I am most familure with were someone who decided to try and sail across the Atlantic Ocean on a Hobie 16, and someone trying to run in a bubble to Bermuda from Florida.

The standard by the way is that 'no skipper could make or continue this voyage safely.' So the the Hobie's case the fact that the skipper had zero sailing experience on the ocean, and had minimal skill at all simply didn't apply. The USCG ruled that the specific Hobie 16 in question was not capable of making the voyage safely no matter who was the skipper.

The bubble idiot had already tried to run across to Bermudah before and didn't make it. Mostly because running across the ocean in an inflatable hamster wheel is stupid. But also because it flipped over in 3' seas and couldn't be re-righted.

Both of these trips we given a list of things they could do in order to have the prohibition lifted. The easiest of which was to provide a support boat for the attempt.
__________________
Greg

- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
Stumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 11:50   #42
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 412
Re: Can a fireman force you to abandon your boat?

No one has legal authority to order a master off his vessel.
__________________
jmschmidt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 11:54   #43
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,105
Re: Can a fireman force you to abandon your boat?

The CG can declare a "manifestly unsafe" situation and demand abandonment. The sailors however do have the right to refuse. Maritime common law is rift with this contradiction. The CG did mandate a bunch of old men abandon their attempt to cross the Atlantic in an old LST about 20 years ago. They gave the middle finger salute and proceeded onwards, arriving safely.
Maritime law also varies by nation. However, almost all give final discretion to the boat's captain. May still wind up in court. Captain on board vs authorities at a distance normally wins the day.
__________________
reed1v is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 12:31   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Beneteau 445
Posts: 17
Re: Can a fireman force you to abandon your boat?

Thanks for the insights. Unless things started to get nasty I was not going to abandon my boat even after the 10 minutes ultimatum. But I still feel angry at myself for letting this guy tell me what to do with my family. Anyways, lesson learned (maybe a couple...).
__________________
Miguelso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 12:41   #45
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Beneteau 445
Posts: 17
Re: Can a fireman force you to abandon your boat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
There was a boat in a similar position in the Oakland Estuary recently. The USCG gave the passengers a ride to safety, but the skipper stayed aboard while attempts were made to tow the boat off. Unless you are in immediate danger, I would have thought that this approach is the appropriate one.

Were you on a falling tide or rising one?
Falling tide and a forecast of 30+knt gusts that afternoon (no swells there though). I knew if I didn't get out of there in a couple of hours I could be in trouble, but once I realized what went wrong with the engine I was confident I could start it right away.
__________________

__________________
Miguelso is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Abandon Boat in Marina in Florida Rocketman Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 117 31-01-2015 07:35
Can You Force Buyer to Change Boat Name? sailingmonica General Sailing Forum 54 18-02-2014 11:20
force 10 different on west marine vs the force 10 site boatsail Monohull Sailboats 21 18-05-2013 16:13



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:06.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.