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Old 25-11-2013, 16:38   #46
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pirate Re: Broaching - where is the edge?

Originally Posted by Ocean Girl
I had a boat that had the ships bell mounted so perfectly, the bell would chime when it was time to reef. ... In calm seas and steady winds your boat will probably head up into the wind before the broach. Plus her weather helm will get too much. Remember, at a certain degree heel, the boat will just start dumping the wind and you will slow down.... My husband loves to try to touch the spreaders to the water.. me, I like a cool 20 degrees....


I'm having some mods on my mainsail and the sailmaker mentioned he used to race a Cal 29 (world's 2nd fastest boat behind the Sundeer 64 and ~ twice as fast as a Catalina or Hunter) and noted that beyond 12 degrees, the boat would slow down.

Just sayin'.








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Old 26-11-2013, 17:21   #47
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Re: Broaching - where is the edge?

He he, I'll be sure to relay that to Rain Dog! I threatened to go multihull on his butt if he persists in his attempts to dip the spreaders . Really, he is a great captain and always reefs or lets the main out a tad when I ask him to. He loves speed, loves to get rain dog to her full hull speed. For such a laid back guy he loves to scream across the water, go figure
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Old 27-11-2013, 05:32   #48
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pirate Re: Broaching - where is the edge?

I think training wheels on a boat is an age thing, kinda like these new-fangled tricycle motorcycles, mostly Hondas. Fun as hell to ride, and pleasantly quiet, but you wouldn't want to be seen on one, you dig?

I jest.

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Old 27-11-2013, 07:30   #49
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We sail on a bene oceanis 45 i.e. very beamy spade rudder etc etc. we've broached a couple of time whilst reaching at 8-9 knots, there's plenty of warning as you can feel the water separating off the rudder before is fully stalls until eventually it just goes and the boat rounds up. It's a little unnerving the first time but a total non event and quite gentle, she just levels out and drops some speed and then it's all under control again. We have a furling main which is great because afterwards we can just suck a bit of sail in without changing course and coming into wind. Btw after having both slab reeling and furling I would never go back to the former, in mast furling is awesome
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Old 27-11-2013, 15:14   #50
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Re: Broaching - where is the edge?

Just to put a fly in the ointment I say you can broach going upwind- but the conditions are rare. We were having an exciting time out- 20knts headwind, reefed main and jib half reefed in (Compac 23). Saw a microburst coming across the water, had just enough time to give the grandson to my daughter and get her in and close the cabin. Instant 60 knt winds (as measured on the beach behind us) The boat was picked up and flung around about 100 degrees and then broached down. Popped right up after furling the jib and releasing the main. (while standing on the topsides) sailed a traumatized team under motor into dock. Just a little water into the cabin, but the helmsman doesn't get to hold the baby anymore! (If I would have just had two seconds to depower the main and jib)
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Old 27-11-2013, 15:24   #51
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Re: Broaching - where is the edge?

Newt, wouldn't you call that a knock down(same thing?). That type of situation, wall of wind, I bet it wouldn't matter what point of sail, she would of been "shoved" to head up/dump wind in either case. Or am I misunderstanding your post?

Hope that experience didnt cause any issues about sailing with your crew, beside not being able to hold the baby while at the helm. BTB, what did the baby do?
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Old 27-11-2013, 17:27   #52
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Re: Broaching - where is the edge?

What I am saying OC is that the wind was strong enough it caught the bow and turned the boat downwind, then slammed it down! Rare, but I have heard it happen, where the windage of the bow was enough to turn the boat around. I think Andrew Troop reported on such a incident a while back.
Mom and the baby didn't sail with me for about 3 years. Went out for the first time since then last year...
I am a lot more careful now with grand kids aboard. Micro bursts do happen under certain conditions in which they stay home...
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Old 27-11-2013, 18:35   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy Feet View Post
We sail on a bene oceanis 45 i.e. very beamy spade rudder etc etc. we've broached a couple of time whilst reaching at 8-9 knots, there's plenty of warning as you can feel the water separating off the rudder before is fully stalls until eventually it just goes and the boat rounds up. It's a little unnerving the first time but a total non event and quite gentle, she just levels out and drops some speed and then it's all under control again. We have a furling main which is great because afterwards we can just suck a bit of sail in without changing course and coming into wind. Btw after having both slab reeling and furling I would never go back to the former, in mast furling is awesome
That effect is called rounding up , broaching happens downwind , where the wind pins the sails to the water.

Knock downs are generic terms, used to indicate a very extreme heel angle , usually spreaders touching the water.

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Old 27-11-2013, 18:58   #54
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Re: Broaching - where is the edge?

When I re-read the Original Post, the words "new sailor" jumped out to me. In reading the posts, two things really nailed it: One, (by Sandy Feet and others) talkes about how you can feel the water seperation off the rudder. When you feel the tiller/wheel is not in control, you know that you are "on the edge". The other says why this is "on the edge": Gear failure. Most broaches (very well described) and round-ups are exciting, but not usually going over. But the stress on gear (and grandchildren) can create truly dangerous situations. I sail my boat, with my wife, a whole lot differently than the Sydney 38 I crew on (racing). On that boat we've got a lot of experience and young muscle. The edge on that boat is very different than on mine. The video of the Olson 30 may not be a knockdown, but it sure scared the guy in the yellow slicker who almost went overboard! Thanks to all the respondants for a really interesting thread.
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Old 04-12-2013, 09:18   #55
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Re: Broaching - where is the edge?

Many thanks to all those who have commented on this thread. I've sailed quite a bit since I originally posted it 9 months ago and have learned a great deal since then.

It's obvious to me now that I didn't fully understand the concept of broaching back then - confusing it with knock downs and how it increased the risk of capsizing.

Nowadays, when sailing close hauled or on a close reach with friends who have even less experience than I do, I jokingly tell them they don't need to worry if the toe rail is in the water, only if the spreaders are.

But it begs the question: is it even possible to go from toe rail in the water to spreaders in the water when sailing close hauled or will the boat always lose rudder control and round up back on it's feet before that happens?
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Old 04-12-2013, 09:27   #56
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Re: Broaching - where is the edge?

Pretty hard to imagine that happening unless there was a real big sea running and it caught you at the wrong angle. As the boat heels the amount of sail is reduced to the wind and the rudder will stall so you have 2 things that are acting to stop you from going over. Normally a knock down is something that happens in high winds with a spinnaker because other than that it won't be the wind that knocks you down it will be the sea.
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:09   #57
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pirate Re: Broaching - where is the edge?

Closest I've come to broaching was in 2001 bring a Bene 321 from the Carib to UK... big sea's but not rough as such and a steady F5-6 on the stern and following sea.. comfortable and fast with just the genoa at 50%... only thing was occasionally a bigger breaking wave would crop up here and there...
1st time I got caught was under TP and the rudder just came out of the water as she crested.. pivoted beam on to sea and wind then laid right over before falling of the back of the crest and recovering.. scary or what..
Got caught a few times after that till I got the hang of those sea's but nowhere near as bad.. just a bit 'white knuckle'...
Pretty sure however if those waves had been steeper I'd have fallen down the front instead and been rolled
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:26   #58
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Re: Broaching - where is the edge?

You have my admiration boatman. I wouldn't take a 32 ft Bene offshore in any conditions. Tried a 34 once- rudder out of the water in swells- headed straight back in.
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:38   #59
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pirate Re: Broaching - where is the edge?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
You have my admiration boatman. I wouldn't take a 32 ft Bene offshore in any conditions. Tried a 34 once- rudder out of the water in swells- headed straight back in.
Mate... if those waves had been closer and steeper I'da been hove to and down below sipping coffee, nibbling digestives and reading a book..
I'm no heroic boy racer..
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Old 04-12-2013, 14:53   #60
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[QUOTE="OldFrog75;1406836 But it begs the question: is it even possible to go from toe rail in the water to spreaders in the water when sailing close hauled or will the boat always lose rudder control and round up back on it's feet before that happens?[/QUOTE]

Yes, it is possible. We did it once while beating thru a pass.
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