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Old 06-05-2014, 11:29   #286
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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To my mind, therefore, it's not the design of modern production boats, it's the execution: I see unforgivable sloppiness and "cheap-outs" even in boat show models. The French industry in particular is under enormous pressure to cut costs, and we are sailing in the results.

For a boat to twist itself apart internally is suggestive that it was built with insufficient reinforcement to me. But, as has been pointed out, bad seamanship can destroy good boats
The primary way the french boating industry ( and many others in Europe) stayed in business was to invest hugely in automation. To witness Hanses construction processes is to witness an assembly process far closer to automative processes then anything traditional in the boat industry.

Hence we see more construction techniques that differ from hand ones, just like today, you couldn't manually build a modern car, equally the time is coming when you can't build ( or even re-build) a modern boat.


It is of course possible to engineer or even over engineer boats to any desired cost point, theres enough evidence in the custom market to show that .

However the proof is in the pudding. There are more sailing boats in Europe ( as the largest market) then ever before, many are repeatedly used in the high latitude sailing typical of Northern Europe or around the UK and Ireland. These conditions differ considerably from typical tropical oceans crossing often referred to as the "milk run".

Yet we see no consistent problem emerging, yes of course occasionally issues arise and from time to time , you do get a line of boats that turns out to be a lemon.

The fact is I sail 10 year old Bennnys and Bavs, etc not to mention many other like Delphia etc. I suspect the same old arguments will be trashed out again in 2020.

The fact is we cannot all sail 30 year old valients etc , all these old makers went bust for a reason and there arnt enough to go around anyway !!.

Noone is putting modern production boats on a pedestal, I can easily find specialist builder like Gunfleet, or Rustler, or Discovery yachts in the UK alone, that expose the high quality , high cost ethos. SO what. equally I can buy a Jaguar XK8, but equally a Nissan will cross the country just as well. All round europe, I can find specialist yacht builders, like Contest , x-yacht, arcona, Amel, comar, confortina, faurby, Luffe and many more, that are catering for those that "like the finer things in life".

SO what, is a BenBavHan the epitome of yachts building , of course not, will it handle a circumnavigation in the hands of a reasonable and skilled person, of course it will , as has been demonstrated 100s of times. Thats all that matters.


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Old 06-05-2014, 11:52   #287
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

I don't where some of this stuff comes from. Modern boats are still mostly hand made. Just because some CNC machine cut the cloth or the wood panels doesn't mean workers didn't fit them by hand. No machine ran the wires, cut the openings installed the valves and equipment. No machine fit and installed any of this stuff, human hands did.

In the end all that has happened is that boats are built more to the plan using assemblies that have been cut to the exact dimensions specified.
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Old 06-05-2014, 11:53   #288
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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I don't where some of this stuff comes from. Modern boats are still mostly hand made. Just because some CNC machine cut the cloth or the wood panels doesn't mean workers didn't fit them by hand. No machine ran the wires, cut the openings installed the valves and equipment. No machine fit and installed any of this stuff, human hands did.

In the end all that has happened is that boats are built more to the plan using assemblies that have been cut to the exact dimensions specified.

Bavaria and Hanse, cut most of the opening and portholes etc in the hull using robots and CNC machines , Far more is done by machine then you realise,

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Old 06-05-2014, 11:56   #289
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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Bavaria and Hanse, cut most of the opening and portholes etc in the hull using robots and CNC machines , Far more is done by machine then you realise,

dave

If they do that is great!!! Means they go in the correct spot.
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Old 06-05-2014, 12:09   #290
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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Bavaria and Hanse, cut most of the opening and portholes etc in the hull using robots and CNC machines , Far more is done by machine then you realise,

dave
Robots be damned. All I can report on is what I've seen (and heard...tap, tap THUNK) on a fair number of modern production boats. The fact is that few of these will go to Spitsbergen. Most will sit at dock and be used as coastal or day sailers in benign conditions, and therefore flaws or shortcuts are liable to remain largely invisible.

Can you do passagemaking in a production cruiser? Of course. People do it all the time. Is it a prudent idea? Ask an insurer or a SAR person. One way or another, they have to pay for things going wrong at sea.
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Old 06-05-2014, 12:14   #291
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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Robots be damned.
I don't quite understand the purpose of that comment, I wasn't saying it was better or worse, merely that its was used .

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The fact is that few of these will go to Spitsbergen. Most will sit at dock and be used as coastal or day sailers in benign conditions, and therefore flaws or shortcuts are liable to remain largely invisible.
Nobody is going to spitbergen, be in a Oyster or a Bavaria. But many of these boats are used regularly in waters that are not tolerant of poor design. A couple of summer sailing around the Uk or irish sea will leave you with a whole new definition of "heavy weather"

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Can you do passagemaking in a production cruiser? Of course. People do it all the time. Is it a prudent idea? Ask an insurer or a SAR person. One way or another, they have to pay for things going wrong at sea.
I am a SAR person, ask me?, no let me answer, the skipper is a huge factor, not the boat. most rescues are because someone attempted something stupid, most are pulled from boats that are perfectly seaworthy.
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Old 06-05-2014, 12:26   #292
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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I don't quite understand the purpose of that comment, I wasn't saying it was better or worse, merely that its was used .



Nobody is going to spitbergen, be in a Oyster or a Bavaria. But many of these boats are used regularly in waters that are not tolerant of poor design.



I am a SAR person, ask me?, no let me answer, the skipper is a huge factor, not the boat. most rescues are because someone attempted something stupid, most are pulled from boats that are perfectly seaworthy.
"Robots be damned" refers to their utter absence should I find myself sinking due to a poorly built production boat. Robots ensure uniformity: if the boat is insufficiently designed or laid up or reinforced due to space or cost considerations, all robots do is give you identicallly knocked out results, bad or good.

I last sailed in Europe in November in the Bay of Quiberon. The weather was what you'd expect, but the marinas, not the waters, were full. Most people, most of the time, will decline on the basis of cold or comfort to sail in rotten or marginal weather. It's only passagemakers who commit to multi-day or week crossings far beyond the ability to forecast weather (only "odds" as per pilot charts) who have no choice but to cope with what the sea throws at them.

Yes, the skipper is a huge factor. Of course. I live in North America; you don't have to tell me of the generally sub-par level of sail training and certification here. But the skipper's competence is also a function of fatigue, and that's a function of seakindliness. A go-fast, light, flat-bottomed, wide saloon modern boat made for 15 knot offshore winds in the Med is going to be a teeth-rattling horror in a cross-sea 500 NM off soundings. So I agree that the boat can outlast the crew...but that the boat's design is part of what disables the crew and leads to the pushing of the big red button. That said, in a well-found boat, you are safer offshore than inshore.
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Old 06-05-2014, 12:31   #293
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post

1. Hence we see more construction techniques that differ from hand ones, just like today, you couldn't manually build a modern car, equally the time is coming when you can't build ( or even re-build) a modern boat.

2. ...is a BenBavHan the epitome of yachts building , of course not,...
1. Reminds me of when I used to work on the engine in our '71 VW bug. I could actually get to everything, even the valves. I had "The Book", didn't know what a valve was or did, but, boy, could I "do them." Years later, we bought a Ford LTD, mid-80s. I couldn't find the spark plugs, and I think this was before fuel injection. Some mechanic told me that they'd put them on the bottom of the engine to make it easier to both build and service for the guys with lifts! Didn't know whether to believe that or not, so we bought a boat so I could get my knuckles busted and hands dirty all over again, like on my bug, which the PW (previous wife) made me sell 'cuz she claimed she couldn't learn to drive stick. Current wife had a Fiat Spider when we met...

Had a discussion on another forum about the newer Catalinas, which, the poster claimed, the factory told him had "chainplates you never have to service and they're buried in the fiberglass..." Ha! When I suggested that was "Nonsense" he took it personally, mistaking my response to what he was told to what he had typed. We managed to sort it all out offline. In any event, though, that's a disturbing "design concept" --- but, I do have him "hot on the trail" to discover that perhaps he misunderstood what he was told. At least, I do think he knows what a chainplate is...

Which leads me to...

2. BenBavHan --- is this the European equivalent to Catabeneunter?
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Old 06-05-2014, 12:33   #294
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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Yes, the skipper is a huge factor. Of course. I live in North America; you don't have to tell me of the generally sub-par level of sail training and certification here. But the skipper's competence is also a function of fatigue, and that's a function of seakindliness. A go-fast, light, flat-bottomed, wide saloon modern boat made for 15 knot offshore winds in the Med is going to be a teeth-rattling horror in a cross-sea 500 NM off soundings. So I agree that the boat can outlast the crew...but that the boat's design is part of what disables the crew and leads to the pushing of the big red button. That said, in a well-found boat, you are safer offshore than inshore.
Firstly , you've obviously not sailed the Med much.

Sea kindliness is a much over used phrase, Ive sailed modern yachts with better manners then some old designs and vice versa. Ive taken modern production yachts well well off soundings into bad weather and not experienced "teeth rattling horrors". I see the superb hydrodynamic responses and resistance to breaching that many modern boats have , compared to older rudder attached designs etc. It all a design compromise.

Most boats built today are far more durable and far more capable then then crews that sail them , ultimately thats the only metric .

You have a 41 foot steel boat , your hardly in the impartial camp.!!

Yes of course some modern boats are dogs, I sailed a GibSea once, never again, the forward cabin doors popped out in a moderate 10 -15 foot swell.!!.

equally Ive taken several jeaneauxs through very heavy weather and equally many Beneteaus. Often the state of maintenance, proper repairs have a lot to do with the performance of the boat.

Equally in the SAR game, if I had tuppence for every rescue that blamed the boat , when clearly the crew were the problem, Id be a rich man.

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Old 06-05-2014, 12:39   #295
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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I am a SAR person, ask me?, no let me answer, the skipper is a huge factor, not the boat. most rescues are because someone attempted something stupid, most are pulled from boats that are perfectly seaworthy.
Of course the skipper is a huge factor, but a good skipper doesn't take his boat into conditions it wasn't designed/built for. Every boat is not designed and built for the same level of prolonged use in rough seas as every other boat.

Are you really mostly pulling people from perfectly seaworthy boats, why do that? If the boat is still perfectly seaworthy, unless they are injured, why don't they stay aboard?
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Old 06-05-2014, 12:44   #296
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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Some observations: A friend of mine has just acquired a 2002 Dufour 36 Classic. It's a beautiful boat, and has been immaculately kept, but I was interested in the construction details. It looks very good indeed and I see in it all that I would like to see in a coastal cruiser capable of handling a blow, if not necessarily crossing oceans. Every line and conduit is clearly labelled. Wire gauges to items like the Lofrans windlass are right-sized. Access to plumbing and electrics is easy and roomy. Clever ideas abound. She sails very comfortably as well. I was reduced to "I would put in a mast step to reach the halyard in the Stack Pack and maybe a handrail in the companionway..." Trivial stuff.

The same friend looked at a 2011 Hanse for about the same money last year. This was a nearly new boat. Sunlight gleamed through core voids in the hull. Bulkheads had closely clustered holes for hose and control tubing, right beside breaks in the tabbing. There was other evidence of shortcuts and quality control issues visible even to the non-surveyor. Ill-fitting floor panels lacking positive lockdowns. Sticking drawers. Cheap laminates. This boat was listed, however, at a higher price than the Dufour. Superficially, they were similar. "Under the hood", however, the older Dufour makes the almost-current Hanse look borderline dangerous.

To my mind, therefore, it's not the design of modern production boats, it's the execution: I see unforgivable sloppiness and "cheap-outs" even in boat show models. The French industry in particular is under enormous pressure to cut costs, and we are sailing in the results.

For a boat to twist itself apart internally is suggestive that it was built with insufficient reinforcement to me. But, as has been pointed out, bad seamanship can destroy good boats.
What you tell about the Hanse is not what is typical. Hanse is known to have a good overall built. I would say that they are not less solid then the French boats. Dufours had and have a good built quality compared with other French boats but I would not say less solid than an Hanse.

In 2002 I was buying a boat. That one was one of the candidates the other was a Hanse the other a Bavaria. They seemed to have a similar quality to me and what lead me to the Bavaria was a too small front cabin on the Hanse (I am big) and a more modern hull than the Dufour. The Bavaria was also a lighter and faster boat (with the right available options).

I don't think you are right. I believe boats were never built with a better quality control then today but if you really think that you can ask on dedicated brand boat Forums if they think that is true. It may be interesting, even if the ones that have old boats will have always the tendency to say that "in the good old times everything was better".

Here you have the Hanse forum. It is quite good and they don't always say good things about their boats.

myHanse - Hanse Yachts Owners Forum
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Old 06-05-2014, 12:47   #297
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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Are you really mostly pulling people from perfectly seaworthy boats, why do that? If the boat is still perfectly seaworthy, unless they are injured, why don't they stay aboard?

That my friend is a very good question. IN many cases the boat is serviceable or repairable or just plain fine. its one of the reasons Im always interested in the crew dynamic behind rescues, because in my experience its the major factor, but rarely gets told truthfully.

I think there are several factors at play. One is that, we have more people on the water then ever before. Levels of education vary and today many "sailors" didn't come from the " experience grind" learning and f&8king up,as they went. SO we have people that get themselves into situations where they are terrified ( or the wife is, or the crew is or something) and they leave a perfectly good boat.

Then we have people sailing vessels with very limited repair or "handyman" knowledge, Ive seen people that don't understand the basics of a diesel engine, or where all the thru hulls are etc, often these people are sailing for quite some time. Ive seen poor navigation knowledge, poor understanding of radar or other "aids".

Again a situation develops and its a rescue.

Ive particularly seen people with little experience of heavy weather or how to ensure the comfort and safety of the boat in such weather, then realise its "all too much" and get rescued.

This is leaving aside the Jonahs and Pugwashs, that are going to sea in a homebuilt bathtub etc.

Admittedly, we have an extraordinary good SAR and very dense spread of rescue assets, so lifeboats and helicopters tend to appear at a drop of a hat. !!

I can truthfully say that a tiny percentage, really tiny where down to some inherent fault in the vessel ( as a model range )

I take "rescue accounts" with a great grain of salt these days

dave
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Old 06-05-2014, 13:08   #298
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

Robots

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=xL8SChWt96c
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Old 06-05-2014, 13:18   #299
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

I'm held up waiting for a new chain stripper in the Greek Islands. Was BSing with a local do it all mechanic, Mr. Fix it/boatbuilder repair artist who keeps the local charter operation going. Very recently a Bav had the main bulkhead break loose and he told me that the boats were designed to the absolute minimum standard. Most of them were holding up but he said he was kept busy full time making repairs that were necessary because of the quality of build. The guy could not find a good thing to say about them other than the older Bav's were better than the new ones.
In my opinion many of these boats are not aging well no matter which robot puts them together.
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Old 06-05-2014, 13:26   #300
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pirate Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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Are you really mostly pulling people from perfectly seaworthy boats, why do that? If the boat is still perfectly seaworthy, unless they are injured, why don't they stay aboard?
Because they are no longer seaworthy... gotta factor in the psychological factor... once a rescue vessel is called and on scene it takes a lot of nerve to watch safety and comfort sail away..
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