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Old 05-05-2014, 10:16   #271
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
To pull a rudder, I guess you dig a big, deep hole under it?
Do most yards allow this, or is done another way like paying for the lift again?
Some yards allow this and others not, the best way to drop the rudder if you want to do it is when the boat its in the travelift crane before to put the boat in the stands, saying that if you do your own work in the quadrant cables etc,, and leave the rudder ready to drop you save a lot of time and money, boatyards charge a crane fee if the boat need to be lifted for rudder removal if the rudder is to deep for dig a hole.
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Old 05-05-2014, 10:37   #272
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

I think this should be taken as a cautionary tale for any of us who run aground (or have a travelift drop or a collision) to check carefully for delamination and tabbing failure - perhaps quite some distance from the impact point.

Most of today's boat are more than strong enough at sea dealing with the forces the designers (and their software) intended. But the high point loads of hitting something isn't part of the spec.

I think engineers would agree that a typical overbuilt (and heavy) boat from the '80's before we had such good software could handle a much harder collision or grounding without serious damage.

.
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Old 05-05-2014, 10:53   #273
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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I think this should be taken as a cautionary tale for any of us who run aground (or have a travelift drop or a collision) to check carefully for delamination and tabbing failure - perhaps quite some distance from the impact point.

Most of today's boat are more than strong enough at sea dealing with the forces the designers (and their software) intended. But the high point loads of hitting something isn't part of the spec.

I think engineers would agree that a typical overbuilt (and heavy) boat from the '80's before we had such good software could handle a much harder collision or grounding without serious damage.

.

2 inches and half solid stuff around my rudder post...
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Old 05-05-2014, 11:16   #274
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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...
I think engineers would agree that a typical overbuilt (and heavy) boat from the '80's before we had such good software could handle a much harder collision or grounding without serious damage.

.
I don't know about that. Heavier boats suffer more since the force generated on impact has to do with mass and speed.

Some light boats with apparently flimsy keels can be very strong:



Also some modern boats like the Salona, X yacht or Luffe or Grand Soleil, among others, have the keel bolted to a big steel or carbon structure that is glassed and bonded to the hull. Those offer an additional strength in what regards Keel/hull fixation.

Even some of the ones that don't have that system seem very strong: Some years back (2006) I saw a brand new Wauquiez 40s that had hit a rock at over 7K. The keel was completely bent but apparently no other damage was done. Not even a small crack could be seen anywhere.





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Old 05-05-2014, 12:59   #275
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

Keels can normally take a licking and keep on ticking but rudders not so much, especially lighter built spades.
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Old 05-05-2014, 13:07   #276
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

So how does one go about fixing something like this?
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Old 05-05-2014, 13:09   #277
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

Bolt on a new one
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Old 05-05-2014, 13:24   #278
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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So how does one go about fixing something like this?
Take it down, ship it to the factory, melt it (it is lead) and make it again
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Old 05-05-2014, 13:26   #279
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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Keels can normally take a licking and keep on ticking but rudders not so much, especially lighter built spades.
That's true. That's one of the reasons modern boats have two
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Old 06-05-2014, 08:10   #280
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

Some modern boats have 2 rudders, got my vote!
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Old 06-05-2014, 08:54   #281
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

Older boats also have 2 rudders. It is only those half-boats that don't.

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Old 06-05-2014, 09:01   #282
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

All jokes aside, a couple of points. Few if any high production European builders use lead anymore for keels cause it is a lot more $$, pretty much all cast iron these days. When lead hits something hard it deforms and in doing so absorbs a lot of the impact and stress which is a very good point in having a lead keel. Cast iron does not distort and allows the full impact to be made at the joint between keel and hull and the loads can often be more than designed for.
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Old 06-05-2014, 10:46   #283
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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Of course not.. they're high quality items built with the latest technology and materials... not like those 60's, 70's and 80's pieces of crap littering the oceans of the world..
I'd rather litter the ocean than befoul the sea bed.
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Old 06-05-2014, 10:48   #284
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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All jokes aside, a couple of points. Few if any high production European builders use lead anymore for keels cause it is a lot more $$, pretty much all cast iron these days. When lead hits something hard it deforms and in doing so absorbs a lot of the impact and stress which is a very good point in having a lead keel. Cast iron does not distort and allows the full impact to be made at the joint between keel and hull and the loads can often be more than designed for.

One of the reasons I prefer bolt on to integral.
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Old 06-05-2014, 11:05   #285
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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I don't mind knowledgeable criticism, but just " having a go" at production boats, especially French ones, seems to be a feature of CF, usually by people who have either never sailed across any serious body of water, or never sailed these boats.
Some observations: A friend of mine has just acquired a 2002 Dufour 36 Classic. It's a beautiful boat, and has been immaculately kept, but I was interested in the construction details. It looks very good indeed and I see in it all that I would like to see in a coastal cruiser capable of handling a blow, if not necessarily crossing oceans. Every line and conduit is clearly labelled. Wire gauges to items like the Lofrans windlass are right-sized. Access to plumbing and electrics is easy and roomy. Clever ideas abound. She sails very comfortably as well. I was reduced to "I would put in a mast step to reach the halyard in the Stack Pack and maybe a handrail in the companionway..." Trivial stuff.

The same friend looked at a 2011 Hanse for about the same money last year. This was a nearly new boat. Sunlight gleamed through core voids in the hull. Bulkheads had closely clustered holes for hose and control tubing, right beside breaks in the tabbing. There was other evidence of shortcuts and quality control issues visible even to the non-surveyor. Ill-fitting floor panels lacking positive lockdowns. Sticking drawers. Cheap laminates. This boat was listed, however, at a higher price than the Dufour. Superficially, they were similar. "Under the hood", however, the older Dufour makes the almost-current Hanse look borderline dangerous.

To my mind, therefore, it's not the design of modern production boats, it's the execution: I see unforgivable sloppiness and "cheap-outs" even in boat show models. The French industry in particular is under enormous pressure to cut costs, and we are sailing in the results.

For a boat to twist itself apart internally is suggestive that it was built with insufficient reinforcement to me. But, as has been pointed out, bad seamanship can destroy good boats.
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