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Old 30-04-2014, 09:36   #226
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Logic... hmmm..
mebbe…but would you earn your ear tattoo stars in one?
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Old 30-04-2014, 09:39   #227
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

Back to Blue Pearl...

From the news article referenced by SailorHutch:

Quote:
The Rorke’s boat got in trouble last Thursday evening after mounting seas put strain on the aft bulkhead of the yacht, which acts as a support for the rudder. The bulkhead gave way under the battering from the sea and the rudder cables snapped, leaving the yacht taking on water and at the mercy of the waves. “Within a couple of hours, she was gone and we were leaping for our lives into a life raft,” said Mr Rorke.
I'm not familiar with the B50's construction, but the key point seems to be that the rudder tube is attached to the aft bulkhead. The statement attributed to Mr Rorke seems to me to infer that the wave forces on the rudder were transferred to the aft bulkhead, and those forces, perhaps with the force of waves externally against the internal hull/bulkhead joints (hull flexing), caused the bulkhead to fail catastrophically, ripping apart the entire steering system and breaching the hull. Since we know from his "Lost Rudder Nightmare" thread that the boat suffered prior damage to the rudder, it would appear that the full extent of damage to the structural integrity of the aft end of the boat was much greater than he suspected.
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Old 30-04-2014, 09:48   #228
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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Originally Posted by Hud3 View Post
Since we know from his "Lost Rudder Nightmare" thread that the boat suffered prior damage to the rudder, it would appear that the full extent of damage to the structural integrity of the aft end of the boat was much greater than he suspected.
Yes, back to being sober. It indeed is suspect and should be given the benefit of being the reason, as the original survey was not (IMO) sufficient or complete.
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Old 30-04-2014, 10:22   #229
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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Originally Posted by Hud3 View Post
Back to Blue Pearl...

From the news article referenced by SailorHutch:



I'm not familiar with the B50's construction, but the key point seems to be that the rudder tube is attached to the aft bulkhead. The statement attributed to Mr Rorke seems to me to infer that the wave forces on the rudder were transferred to the aft bulkhead, and those forces, perhaps with the force of waves externally against the internal hull/bulkhead joints (hull flexing), caused the bulkhead to fail catastrophically, ripping apart the entire steering system and breaching the hull. Since we know from his "Lost Rudder Nightmare" thread that the boat suffered prior damage to the rudder, it would appear that the full extent of damage to the structural integrity of the aft end of the boat was much greater than he suspected.
On our '99 461 the rudder stock and associated tube are separate from the 'most' aft bulkhead which separates the lazerette from the aft cabins, centerline fuel tank and engine space. It's apparent that the design and construction of the newer 50 is different from the 461 (Bruce Farr & Armel Briand), especially in the area around the rudder tube, and indeed the rudder stock which, from Blue Pearl's previous [apparent] posts, seems to have an odd use of materials.

While we're speculating:

What you're saying would make a lot of sense. If the 50 had the rudder post basically trunnion'ed or plated onto the aft bulkhead, then a heavy rudder collision could have caused ontold damage to the bulkhead region - something which could have been simply faired over and painted during a repair in a bad yard. I doubt a surveyor would have typically thought to look closely at a otherwise visually intact bulkhead.

A badly damaged rudder-tube support structure (which incidentally is a key structural element for the aft hull sections) mixed with a poorly balanced sail plan could easily have put enough dynamic moments onto the tube to cause it to completely separate from the bulkhead. That would have resulted in water pouring in through the lower bearing plate and poor vessel's hours would be numbered: attempting to strap down a rudder tube next to a disintegrated bulkhead in a small space at the back of the vessel in rough conditions wouldn't have been an easy task..
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Old 30-04-2014, 10:46   #230
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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I doubt a surveyor would have typically thought to look closely at a otherwise visually intact bulkhead.
He should have if he noticed anything to the rudder condition.
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Old 30-04-2014, 16:19   #231
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

I look at my skeg attached rudder and the attachment points are massive. Is this a design flaw? So many newer boats have these isolated, balanced rudders. I had a catalina with a bent balanced rudder. Not so great.
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Old 30-04-2014, 16:35   #232
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Blue Pearl Sinks

If I understand correctly, my IP's rudder is a balanced spade rudder. The lobster strap at the bottom has no structural significance and exists only to keep lines out. I have a full keel boat with a spade rudder
But, it's exceptionally well protected by the mass of the keel in front of it.
I've never heard of an IP losing a rudder, Masts from broken chain plates maybe, but not a rudder.
Possibly it's not a rudder's design as much as how well protected it is from damage?
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Old 30-04-2014, 16:38   #233
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

INdeed, very few boats have the whole enchilada of a pintle hung rudder, such as a west-sail or folk boat. And full length skegs are rare.
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Old 01-05-2014, 09:50   #234
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

Slightly off topic, but here's some photos of the 461's hull layup to illustrate where the rudder tube is compared to the aft stringer. The top of the rudder tube is counter supported into the deck structure where the rudder stock terminates in the large API-type square interface for the emergency tiller. The frame's up to 18 deep in some areas of the hull, but shallower aft section behind the engine. The diesel tank is bolted down onto the aft frame. These photos show a Westerbeke powerplant going in (Beneteau South Carolina), rather than the usual 75Hp YanMar powerplant.
Would have been interesting to see similar photos for a 2008 Bene 50.
(Photos courtesy of zrd.com)

Looking forward:



Rudder tube lower section:



Power in place:


Midships H20 tankage:



Forward H20 tankage:
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:20   #235
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

Pretty +1
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:26   #236
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

OT:
A bit wondering the engine bed arrangement above. Why not made them integrated with the frame? Maybe they have a good reason for that but not structurally sound solution IMO
:end of OT
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:30   #237
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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Originally Posted by TeddyDiver View Post
OT:
A bit wondering the engine bed arrangement above. Why not made them integrated with the frame? Maybe they have a good reason for that but not structurally sound solution IMO
:end of OT
I don't understand, that engine bed is part of the hull.
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Old 01-05-2014, 11:40   #238
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

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I don't understand, that engine bed is part of the hull.
It should be but that one looks like having gaps on both ends.. But can't be sure if there's something which not visible in the picture.
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Old 01-05-2014, 11:43   #239
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

The engine is bolted to the liner...
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Old 01-05-2014, 11:51   #240
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Re: Blue Pearl Sinks

Too bad about this Benni sinking but fortunately all made it home which is fortunate indeed. All the bad mouthing of Beneteau's is probably not well founded as they are not a do it all ocean crossing boat, thats simply not what they were designed to do. Stay in the right season and don't venture too far from the trades like MarkJ sails and odds are going to be with you. Don't expect to buy a boat built down to a price to be a jack of all trades as its not fair. Personally I think the Bennies are great boats and meet the needs of 99% of todays sailors. They are a fashion leader and most of their boats sail well. They seem to hold their value reasonably good and their owners are generally happy with them. Are there better built boats, for sure. Are there boats much better designed and built for upper/lower lattitude ocean crossings, yes of course but for the money its pretty hard to beat the value they represent in the market place.
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