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Old 22-08-2013, 19:25   #46
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
A good discussion and also revelatory in re perceptions of roles based upon social class stereotypes. There are two schools here: 1.) couples learning separately, and 2.) couples learning together. I am certain both methods would be effective but would be defintely class oriented in application. In the first case, one assumes a dominant male who intimidates his mousey wife so that it would would difficult for her to learn skills aboard their boat. She feels comfortable with other women (also mousey?) and prefers to learn with other women since the dominant male prevents any meaningful experience. In the second case, the couples learn together since neither partner feels intimidated by the other and they work towards a common goal of growth and experience. As a generalization, couple number one becomes a victim of male /female stereotypes and has not worked out their interpersonal problems irrespective of their separate learning approach. It is unlikely that their "separate training" will have any positive effect on their dysfunctional relationship. Couple number two, however, does not suffer from relationship dysfunction as each person is self confident in their ability to learn and there is no dominance/submissiveness hurdles to leap. The end result is a consequence of their intelligence and education(not necessarily formal). ….


blah blah amateur phycology blah blah…..

a. On the other hand, couple number two, in sync as people and sailors and comfortable in their relationship, complete passage after passage in relative harmony(I say relative since male/female relationships of all ilks have the potential for percussion) and enjoy the fruits of their common labor. We all know who this second group represents as we read the books written about their journeys and adventures--many of whom are members of this Forum. As far as group number one, we also know them--the ones that never go, never sail, never really get along and rarely make it a year on the water. I thought this was a Cruising Forum? All this Psychology makes me uncomfortable. Good luck, good sailing, and may all your adventures be Freudian.
Its nothing to do with "mousey or dominant". Undoutably there are women that learn effectively in the company of the husband, the one that has traditionally taken the lead. BUT, this is not the common situation.

Gaining experience away from the normal structure and responsibility hierachy on board your boat is important. It makes you stronger , more self confidence and you see how others do it.

Then you come back and you bring that extra confidence and experience back into the crew team.

Its not the same as leaning French!

dave
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Old 22-08-2013, 19:33   #47
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pirate Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

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F.S.,
Your point is well taken in respect to many contemporary educational practices. However, inherent in that approach is the belief that there are differences in the way that men and women learn whether it be in same sex only classes or in a mixed male/female environment. Most feminist/intellectually liberated women would disagree with you believing that there are no barriers for women in learning and that it is the quality of the education/teacher, not who is sitting next to you, that is the criteria for learning. Much of this belief system has an inherent undertone of gender inequality where the presence of a man would somehow affect the learning potential of a woman. Most educated people, myself included, would not ascribe to this concept of learning. In regards to your differentiation between academic instruction and that of sport, it is clearly a moot point that would be difficult to prove logically. Unfortunately, our educational systems in the US have been in a steady decline for the last 70 years. A lionshare of this responsibility is due to the increasingly ineffective teaching methods and the dumbing down of curricula to compensate for a lack of quality education in the public school systems. New Age theories of teaching couched in mushy pedantic banter have replaced accountability and educational standards. What we have left is a negligible pittance of a once substantial education system. Separate but Equal . . . I seem to remember those words from my Intro to American History class . . . hmmmmmmmmmmm
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......
Interesting how defensive some men suddenly get...
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Old 23-08-2013, 06:50   #48
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

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A dominant male who intimidates his wife is not a dysfunctional relationship? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm . . . Now that's homemade Sociology!
Look Rognvald,

I said:

"Dominant male / submissive female does not imply the relationship is dysfunctional."

Which you replied with:

"A dominant male who intimidates his wife ..."

I think the way you used my quote to phrase your unrelated proposition is manipulative. I was taught that intimidative persons are often manipulative.

It looks like the relationship we have here is dysfunctional.

What do you think?

Thanks,
b.
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Old 23-08-2013, 18:14   #49
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

After hearing everyone’s advice/suggestions, I believe a combo of sailing with and without my husband will be the best way for me to grow into a component and confident sailor. And reading books along the way. I think confidence will come from sailing solo with the boat we currently own…making mistakes and learning from them! I need to have the confidence and skills needed to sail our future boat solo in case of an emergency.
As cheoh pointed out “there's just no good way to simulate making decisions on your own, thinking ahead and anticipating situations without flying solo some. Doesn't have to be all or nothing, but try it out and see if it doesn't change the way you think about the boat or passages, and make you a stronger team overall”.
My hope is over the next couple years, my husband and I will develop our own personal sailing strengths that make us a good sailing team! We have given ourselves this time (the next three years) for a number of reasons, one being to build our sailing capacity.
Again, thanks for all the input. I’ll keep you updated on how the first solo sail goes, hopefully no huge mishaps. My biggest concern is docking, as the tides and currents in Beaufort can be difficult to manage!
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Old 23-08-2013, 18:47   #50
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

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(...)

My biggest concern is docking, as the tides and currents in Beaufort can be difficult to manage!
Then dock a lot. Start with small boats so that if something goes wrong any damage will be very limited.

I have been sailing for nearly 40 years now and still some docking situations make me feel uneasy and I too scr(..) up now and then.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 24-08-2013, 10:12   #51
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

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Look Rognvald,

I said:

"Dominant male / submissive female does not imply the relationship is dysfunctional."

Which you replied with:

"A dominant male who intimidates his wife ..."

I think the way you used my quote to phrase your unrelated proposition is manipulative. I was taught that intimidative persons are often manipulative.

It looks like the relationship we have here is dysfunctional.

What do you think?

Thanks,
b.
Barnakiel, I think you didn't take the time to read my previous post which states exactly as written "In the first case, one assumes a dominant male who intimidates his mousey wife . . ." There is nothing manipulative in my statement, only a lack of understanding on your part because you didn't read my previous response carefully. No reasonable person would consider that a healthy relationship, ergo dysfunctional. In regards to our relationship, I would not call it dysfunctional but rather a healthy intellectual give and take on a matter of ideological differences. I have nothing personal against you nor anyone else on this Forum. I have never resorted to name calling or personal invectives(as some do on this Forum) against anyone , only a vigorous defense of my opinion with hopefully some humor and reasonable amount sarcasm when needed. This Forum has an interesting mix of people and has been growing in scope with the admission of argumentative "give and take" as long as it doesn't descend into personal attacks of the lowest nature. Because someone disagrees with you does not mean they don't like you, only that you disagree on one or several topics. This is healthy intellectual discourse. And, if disagreement were the litmus test of a relationship, most of us would not be married or maintain any family or personal relationships. Remember the words of the great Winston Churchill: Whenever two people think the same about everything . . . only one person is thinking." Good luck, good sailing, and continued good discourse.
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Old 24-08-2013, 10:50   #52
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

HAY LADY
now tha tyou have heardf rom other GUYS not females, for most part, listen to anothe r female, here----lol

you dont have to take your boat out to sail--find another lady with boat but trepidation over sailing it sola .offer your aid without immediately revealing your expertise level - do what you know how to do. be confident in yourself you know more than you think you know. she will help teach and you will have a blast on the water without spouse and he will be so happy you are learning so much from him he will....we wont go there.......






NOW back to our regularly scheduled male point of view.....
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Old 24-08-2013, 11:19   #53
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

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I wanted some advice on what path you would recommend on learning to sail. I have some basic knowledge of sailing, we own a Catalina 25 and did a flotilla in the BVI a couple years ago. My husband typically has taken the lead when sailing and I have not gained too much experience. However, that is something I want to change.
We plan on buying a boat in three years and living aboard with our two children and I need to gain as much knowledge and experience between now and when we leave. Would you recommend taking ASA courses or gain experience with the sailboat we currently own? What are the benefits of ASA certification? Do you have any book recommendations? Thanks for any advice you can provide!



The discussion of how women learn sailing best has gone a bit away from the original questions. Apparently Awaywego has reached her decision, and she wants to take her own boat out and learn on it. As woman, I applaud her decision.

However, I want to thank GoBoatingNow, FoolishSailor, and Boatman61 for what I, based on my own experience and education believe to be the case: that first building skills equal to her husband's, then rejoining for the teamwork issues will work best--and for both of them. I agree with Zeehag's suggestion, as well, for someone who lacks the confidence of Awaywego, but I like the concept of her doing it in her own boat, as she develops where she needs to improve, and doesn't lean on someone else nor their boat...she's really assuming responsibility, and that's commendable.

To the education theorists: I think the situation where both are total newbies may actually be addressed in either way; but to maximize the woman's learning, it should be separate from his in the beginning. Beginning skippers just have so much going on that their behavior is often erratic and they tend to scream. Both husband and wife are better off where there are social pressures to behave well that do not emanate from each other. We just don't live in a perfect world, and the behaviors with a basis in insecurity are antithetical to learning.

Go for it, Awaywego!

Ann
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Old 24-08-2013, 12:07   #54
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

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Again, thanks for all the input. I’ll keep you updated on how the first solo sail goes, hopefully no huge mishaps. My biggest concern is docking, as the tides and currents in Beaufort can be difficult to manage!
Even if you opt not to enroll in an ASA program, some private lessons with an instructor could be very valuable, particularly when learning how to dock.

With an instructor on board, you get immediate feedback about how to do things better as well as keep yourself from making the same mistakes over and over while you try to figure things out.

Just my two cents worth....
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Old 24-08-2013, 14:55   #55
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

To the education theorists: I think the situation where both are total newbies may actually be addressed in either way; but to maximize the woman's learning, it should be separate from his in the beginning. Beginning skippers just have so much going on that their behavior is often erratic and they tend to scream. Both husband and wife are better off where there are social pressures to behave well that do not emanate from each other. We just don't live in a perfect world, and the behaviors with a basis in insecurity are antithetical to learning. Ann Cate


One does not need a crystal ball to decipher who is the "education theorist," -- one of many names(and perhaps the most genteel) that I have been called in my lifetime. So, rather than speaking surreptitiously and in the Mayan Codex, I will be direct in my response and informative. I believe I have been fortunate in my lifetime to have shared the company, both long and short term, of intelligent, educated, self confident and attractive females--the latter should be self explanatory. It was those very qualities that were the initial attractor and the reason for engendering those relationships. To these women, their approach to learning and life was positive, secure, and eager to learn irrespective of the learning environment. None of them were intimidated by males yet preferred the company,both past and present, of intelligent, aggressive men and they certainly would not fall into the category of "mousey" as I have described their less fortunate counterparts. So, it is not that I don't understand the concept of segregated learning, it is just that I don't understand how intelligent women who are assured and self confident would find it an impediment to learn with the person they most care for in their life. And, the converse is also true. I have no need to leave my cave and engage in male bonding to heighten my self esteem or to learn something new. I prefer a mixed environment for learning since it brings more richness rather than sameness to the table. The bottom line is that some women are liberated without being man haters while others have been genetically destined to the role of "mousey" cave wife and unfortunately, to their male partners, not without a good deal of chronic grumping to vent their self imposed enslavement. Some say tomato, some say tomato . . . your life is a record of genetics and environment. I guess that's the nice way to say it. Good luck, good sailing and for all the other possible "educational theorists" . . . be careful not to offend propriety, decorum and the sailing education police . . .
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Old 24-08-2013, 15:07   #56
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

Rognvald,

Y'all misquoted me twice. Sorry if you felt offended.
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Old 24-08-2013, 15:13   #57
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

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Rognvald,

Y'all misquoted me twice. Sorry if you felt offended.

The misquotes? I directly copied the last paragraph of your last response. Offense? I don't understand the "offense?" I didn't perceive anything close to offense. Good luck and good sailing.
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