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Old 21-08-2013, 14:50   #31
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

I say do both, sail at every opportunity, with AND without the husband, don't be rigid, soak it all up. Just my novice opinion...

Rob
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Old 21-08-2013, 15:00   #32
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My wife has attended the "women and cruising" seminar at the boat show">Annapolis boat show this past spring. She loved it and has made several life long friends already. It was the best thing to happen in our "to be" cruising career. I highly recommend attending the seminar next spring.

It was given by such sailing dignitaries as Pam Wall, Kathy Parsons, and Beth Leonard. Although my wife attend the womens seminars alone, i also had a chance to mingle with experts. Every single one of them is a wealth of knowledge, each contributing a unique flavor.

Pam wall is giving a women's cruising class this fall at the bitter end yacht club. Highly recommended.
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Old 21-08-2013, 15:36   #33
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

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Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
@captFrankM

What is your education experience as an instructor? Any physical education for adults?

If you havent experienced the issues with Spouses taking classes together then your lifetime of education didnt involve physical sports but was instead intellectual in nature as this is a well known issue and substantive enough that most quality institutions recognize and adapt to it.

Spouses taking spanish classes together is vastly different from them taking surfing, sailing, wind surfing or kayaking together.

Spouses are grown adults and education centers will always respond to the needs of a client - even if it is detrimental to the clients effective learning potential.

F.S.,
Your point is well taken in respect to many contemporary educational practices. However, inherent in that approach is the belief that there are differences in the way that men and women learn whether it be in same sex only classes or in a mixed male/female environment. Most feminist/intellectually liberated women would disagree with you believing that there are no barriers for women in learning and that it is the quality of the education/teacher, not who is sitting next to you, that is the criteria for learning. Much of this belief system has an inherent undertone of gender inequality where the presence of a man would somehow affect the learning potential of a woman. Most educated people, myself included, would not ascribe to this concept of learning. In regards to your differentiation between academic instruction and that of sport, it is clearly a moot point that would be difficult to prove logically. Unfortunately, our educational systems in the US have been in a steady decline for the last 70 years. A lionshare of this responsibility is due to the increasingly ineffective teaching methods and the dumbing down of curricula to compensate for a lack of quality education in the public school systems. New Age theories of teaching couched in mushy pedantic banter have replaced accountability and educational standards. What we have left is a negligible pittance of a once substantial education system. Separate but Equal . . . I seem to remember those words from my Intro to American History class . . . hmmmmmmmmmmm
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Old 21-08-2013, 16:33   #34
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F.S.,
Your point is well taken in respect to many contemporary educational practices. However, inherent in that approach is the belief that there are differences in the way that men and women learn whether it be in same sex only classes or in a mixed male/female environment. Most feminist/intellectually liberated women would disagree with you believing that there are no barriers for women in learning and that it is the quality of the education/teacher, not who is sitting next to you, that is the criteria for learning. Much of this belief system has an inherent undertone of gender inequality where the presence of a man would somehow affect the learning potential of a woman. Most educated people, myself included, would not ascribe to this concept of learning. In regards to your differentiation between academic instruction and that of sport, it is clearly a moot point that would be difficult to prove logically. Unfortunately, our educational systems in the US have been in a steady decline for the last 70 years. A lionshare of this responsibility is due to the increasingly ineffective teaching methods and the dumbing down of curricula to compensate for a lack of quality education in the public school systems. New Age theories of teaching couched in mushy pedantic banter have replaced accountability and educational standards. What we have left is a negligible pittance of a once substantial education system. Separate but Equal . . . I seem to remember those words from my Intro to American History class . . . hmmmmmmmmmmm
While this is a most interesting and the theory may be fine, it is not what's happens aboard a training vessel. Men tend to overestimate their ability And put themselves forward for tasks they might not have competence it but they try it. Women tend to underestimate their ability and tend to hang back. Hence competitive men onboard tend to overshadow women. Men also want to out compete other men whereas women want the group to succeed.

Secondly in that competitive environment women also tend not to ask questions.

This isn't a commentary on equality its a fact that anyone that has taught sailing can see .

This is before you add in the ' husband ' factor

Dave
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Old 21-08-2013, 17:51   #35
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

FS, as I noted above, I have been teaching ASA classes - mostly 101/103 and Docking endorsement - for about the last 8 years. That is, except for a short stint teaching mechanical repair in my Navy days, the only "physical" education I have done. So, I am sure that there are a significcant number of people on the forum who have more experience teaching outside the classroom. I can only speak to my experience.

I will say that, of all the classes I have taught both in and out of the classroom, to the best of my knowledge, the only place where I have taught husband/wife couples has been in sailboats. I may have had one or two in OUPV classes, but I can't recall any. I have taught father/son, brother/brother and even father/daughter once. I also once taught five cousins - THAT was a competive class.

I agree that, in many cases, when I have had related students, I have had to work to ensure both of them developed an understanding of the material. But, I have found the same situation in any class - in or out. Some students always need more effort to ensure they are getting the material, either because their learning style doesn't fit with the first try I make at teaching it or because they don't provide ready feedback to me. I have to figure out what the issue is and work around it. I have always considered that part of my job, not part of the students. If a student in my class - any student, for whatever reason - does not get the material that I am teaching at the best level they can, I consider that my failure, not theirs.
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Old 21-08-2013, 19:10   #36
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
"At the risk of letting myself in for a flame, I am going to go against the conventional wisdom and tell you not to go sailing without your husband. Your goal should be to work together as a team.
Agreed. 100%.

The OP is not going to learn to sail with her husband by sailing without her husband. The OP claims that despite co-owning the boat for a while AND having a basic knowledge of sailing, she has "not gained too much experience."

Yikes.

There seems to be a fundamental communication problem here. Is it possible the husband doesn't even know the wife would like more time on the helm? If so, the solution isn't to take ASA courses. The solution is to sit down at the galley table and talk about aspirations. Then, and only then, spend time with the hand on the tiller.
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Old 21-08-2013, 19:34   #37
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

Thanks for all the different opinions and advice. As most have said, everyone learns different so I have enjoyed hearing different suggestions.
Fortunately for me, my husband and I are on the same page as far as sailing and our dream of cruising with our family in three years. Up until now, I have to admit I have enjoyed sitting back with a drink and enjoying the ride! But, this is something I plan on changing as I originally posted. I have also been busy for the past couple years with our two little girls (3 months and 18 months). I feel fortunate to be in a situation that I can get hands on experience at any time I choose since the boat is across the street from our house.
Skipmac-thanks for the books suggestions! I read Adrift this summer and it was an amazing survival story.
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Old 22-08-2013, 01:46   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rognvald View Post

F.S.,
Your point is well taken in respect to many contemporary educational practices. However, inherent in that approach is the belief that there are differences in the way that men and women learn whether it be in same sex only classes or in a mixed male/female environment. Most feminist/intellectually liberated women would disagree with you believing that there are no barriers for women in learning and that it is the quality of the education/teacher, not who is sitting next to you, that is the criteria for learning. Much of this belief system has an inherent undertone of gender inequality where the presence of a man would somehow affect the learning potential of a woman. Most educated people, myself included, would not ascribe to this concept of learning. In regards to your differentiation between academic instruction and that of sport, it is clearly a moot point that would be difficult to prove logically. Unfortunately, our educational systems in the US have been in a steady decline for the last 70 years. A lionshare of this responsibility is due to the increasingly ineffective teaching methods and the dumbing down of curricula to compensate for a lack of quality education in the public school systems. New Age theories of teaching couched in mushy pedantic banter have replaced accountability and educational standards. What we have left is a negligible pittance of a once substantial education system. Separate but Equal . . . I seem to remember those words from my Intro to American History class . . . hmmmmmmmmmmm
The primary reason for spouses not taking classes together is not the gender issues, it is the dominance issue. This applies to same sex couples as well. It is very uncommon for a couple to not have a dominant partner, this dominance chan change with the activity and is usually tied to the level of experience one partner has.

When leaning an intellectual activity there is rarely a requirement for teamwork - it is you and the subject, even if there are lab elements. When you are training people in an activity that requires teamwork, such as sailing, the dominant partner can, and usually does, interfere with the learning process. This dominant partner isn't always the male either and has nothing to do with the issues you listed above.

Regarding learning to cruise together by learning to sail together, I don't agree. This usually doesn't work unless both partners are at a comparable skill level. In fact I have also seen couples with a particularly dominant partner come back after a year or so and the less dominant partner had been "de skilled" by lack of participation in the sailing.

It is of course important to learn to sail as a couple, but it is also important to just learn how to sail. I would recommend taking classes separately, join two seperate race teams as well - and then in your free time sail your own boat together as a couple.
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Old 22-08-2013, 03:02   #39
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pirate Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

+A1 for Foolish and GBN...
If the wife is happy to be the galley slave, gofer and windlass queen train with the husband...
But if the husband has any sense he'll have her train separately and let her develop into a competent skipper capable of taking command at the drop of a hat... useful in an emergency
Problem is to many men lack the self confidence to let that happen so instead we see the oft repeated scenario of the dipshit at the helm screaming at his unfortunate crew and blaming her for his cock-ups..
And.. my personal opinion... having someone capable and confident at the helm if I have to go on the foredeck in weather for any reason is worth her weight in gold..
Get the separate Training... sort the personal crap out after..
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Old 22-08-2013, 06:58   #40
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

AwayWeGo,

I would recommend reading "Blown Away" by Herb Payson, "Two On A Big Ocean" by Hal Roth, "Living A Dream" by Suzanne Giesemann and - if you can find it - "Gentleman Never Sail to Weather" by Denny Moore. In all of these stories, the author and his/her spouse sail long distances without major mishap and all of them start out with a husband/wife team of differing sailing skills. Payson's book is particulalry enjoyable, but all of them are good reads.

As for Foolish Sailor and Boatman's comments, they are absolutely correct. If you allow yourself to simply be overshadowed by your husband, you will not become a competent sailor. However, they are also completely incorrect. The solution to avoiding being overshadowed by your husband is not to avoid him, but to work with him to address your needs.

You say that you have been content up to now to be the passenger. You also say that you now want a more active role. You further say that your husband is on board with this.

However, you have not said anything about how he feels about your training. Does he feel comfortable working with you, or would he rather you learned to sail with others?

Frank
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Old 22-08-2013, 17:27   #41
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

A good discussion and also revelatory in re perceptions of roles based upon social class stereotypes. There are two schools here: 1.) couples learning separately, and 2.) couples learning together. I am certain both methods would be effective but would be defintely class oriented in application. In the first case, one assumes a dominant male who intimidates his mousey wife so that it would would difficult for her to learn skills aboard their boat. She feels comfortable with other women (also mousey?) and prefers to learn with other women since the dominant male prevents any meaningful experience. In the second case, the couples learn together since neither partner feels intimidated by the other and they work towards a common goal of growth and experience. As a generalization, couple number one becomes a victim of male /female stereotypes and has not worked out their interpersonal problems irrespective of their separate learning approach. It is unlikely that their "separate training" will have any positive effect on their dysfunctional relationship. Couple number two, however, does not suffer from relationship dysfunction as each person is self confident in their ability to learn and there is no dominance/submissiveness hurdles to leap. The end result is a consequence of their intelligence and education(not necessarily formal). The end result is couple number one becomes the stereotype of Captain Bligh on steroids with his microwave, mixmaster, blender wife and is seen throughout the Caribbean waiting for weather windows that never open, then throwing all caution to the wind and leaving to follow the aimless herd with the end result being Miss Mousey jumping ship in Nassau without her microwave, mixmaster and blender but with a quickly packed seabag and a one way ticket to Iowa. On the other hand, couple number two, in sync as people and sailors and comfortable in their relationship, complete passage after passage in relative harmony(I say relative since male/female relationships of all ilks have the potential for percussion) and enjoy the fruits of their common labor. We all know who this second group represents as we read the books written about their journeys and adventures--many of whom are members of this Forum. As far as group number one, we also know them--the ones that never go, never sail, never really get along and rarely make it a year on the water. I thought this was a Cruising Forum? All this Psychology makes me uncomfortable. Good luck, good sailing, and may all your adventures be Freudian.
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Old 22-08-2013, 17:43   #42
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

Dominant male / submissive female does not imply the relationship is dysfunctional.

Homemade sociology is just that.

b.
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Old 22-08-2013, 17:59   #43
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

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Dominant male / submissive female does not imply the relationship is dysfunctional.

Homemade sociology is just that.

b.
A dominant male who intimidates his wife is not a dysfunctional relationship? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm . . . Now that's homemade Sociology!
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Old 22-08-2013, 19:14   #44
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Ya get some time sailing on your own. It will change the way you think, and make you a stronger sailor, more independent, and more of an asset as crew. Getting some independent experience does not reflect on your relationship with your husband, you can still sail with him too.

There's just no good way to simulate making decisions on your own, thinking ahead and anticipating situations without flying solo some. Doesn't have to be all or nothing, but try it out and see if it doesn't change the way you think about the boat or passages, and make you a stronger team overall.

It's cool you're into it. If you want to save money, just find someone to take your
boat out with you on a calm day. Start small and work up to taking it out by yourself a couple times. You're capable of sailing it by yourself, all you lack is the experience, which, well, you just have to do it once you've worked up to it. Even though singlehanding is not your plan, being able to run the boat on your own is a good thing if you guys are serious about sailing as a family. More than anything, you having the self confidence to do this is a game changer, it could be really positive in a lot of ways.

Send hubby here to talk to us if he's worried about you dinging up the gelcoat or the like, well straighten him out
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Old 22-08-2013, 19:24   #45
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
A good discussion and also revelatory in re perceptions of roles based upon social class stereotypes. There are two schools here: 1.) couples learning separately, and 2.) couples learning together. I am certain both methods would be effective but would be defintely class oriented in application. In the first case, one assumes a dominant male who intimidates his mousey wife so that it would would difficult for her to learn skills aboard their boat. She feels comfortable with other women (also mousey?) and prefers to learn with other women since the dominant male prevents any meaningful experience. In the second case, the couples learn together since neither partner feels intimidated by the other and they work towards a common goal of growth and experience. As a generalization, couple number one becomes a victim of male /female stereotypes and has not worked out their interpersonal problems irrespective of their separate learning approach. It is unlikely that their "separate training" will have any positive effect on their dysfunctional relationship. Couple number two, however, does not suffer from relationship dysfunction as each person is self confident in their ability to learn and there is no dominance/submissiveness hurdles to leap. The end result is a consequence of their intelligence and education(not necessarily formal). ….


blah blah amateur phycology blah blah…..

a. On the other hand, couple number two, in sync as people and sailors and comfortable in their relationship, complete passage after passage in relative harmony(I say relative since male/female relationships of all ilks have the potential for percussion) and enjoy the fruits of their common labor. We all know who this second group represents as we read the books written about their journeys and adventures--many of whom are members of this Forum. As far as group number one, we also know them--the ones that never go, never sail, never really get along and rarely make it a year on the water. I thought this was a Cruising Forum? All this Psychology makes me uncomfortable. Good luck, good sailing, and may all your adventures be Freudian.
Its nothing to do with "mousey or dominant". Undoutably there are women that learn effectively in the company of the husband, the one that has traditionally taken the lead. BUT, this is not the common situation.

Gaining experience away from the normal structure and responsibility hierachy on board your boat is important. It makes you stronger , more self confidence and you see how others do it.

Then you come back and you bring that extra confidence and experience back into the crew team.

dave
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