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Old 21-08-2013, 09:42   #16
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

Farley Mowat's " The Boat that would not float" for a good laff on crusing
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Old 21-08-2013, 10:11   #17
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At the risk of letting myself in for a flame, I am going to go against the conventional wisdom and tell you not to go sailing without your husband. Your goal should be to work together as a team. Sure, you both need to be able to operate the boat independently in an emergency, but you are going to spend way more time sailing together than independently. It's true that you will learn different techniques by sailing with other people. But it's far more important to have your own routine.

My wife and I have been sailing together and living aboard for almost a decade. We did the ASA courses together to have a frame of reference to work from. But we spent way more time learning to work as a team then we ever did learning to tack and gybe.

I would also recommend Suzanne Geisman's book, It's Your Boat, Too. I'm sure I butchered the spelling on her last name, but I noticed the book was available for the Kindle the other day so I am pretty sure a Google search should get you to it.
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Old 21-08-2013, 10:33   #18
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

"At the risk of letting myself in for a flame, I am going to go against the conventional wisdom and tell you not to go sailing without your husband. Your goal should be to work together as a team. Sure, you both need to be able to operate the boat independently in an emergency, but you are going to spend way more time sailing together than independently. It's true that you will learn different techniques by sailing with other people. But it's far more important to have your own routine." CaptFrankM


Very sage advice from Captain Frank. Why would you want to sail with strangers when you are preparing to live aboard with your husband? Once you understand the "points of sail,"(however you achieve it) your best experience is time on the water. There is no substitute for sail time if you want to learn and grow. And, continue to build your skills by sailing in higher winds and waves requiring different skill sets. I can't imagine any sailing couple where the man does not want his wife/friend to participate equally since the reality is that most women are reluctant sailors at best. You have a great boat. Sail it! Good luck and good sailing.
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Old 21-08-2013, 10:42   #19
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

The advice to learn with your husband is off teh mark. As an instructor for many years, Few women learn well in the company of their husband. `especially as the OP said , "he take the lead".

Women learn best in the company of other women, They become confident to ask the "silly" questions and women tend to be more supportive then competitive with each other.

Failing that , try and build experience away from you normal "two up" setting, try sailing with other people, etc.

When you have built more experience, you will feel more confident, and with that confidence will be a better team with you and your husband.

Teamwork come naturally to people that understand what to do and how to do it and why to do it. It will remain a very unequal partnership, if you dont address your knowledge and experience. Some partners are happy with that, some are not

Note: that you may find that you prefer and excell at different things, Maybe you would be good at chartwork, interpreting weather or running the comms. MAybe you will prefer running of the boat.etc Time and experience will tell

If you can , go off and build a separate experience , then return and build on it.
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Old 21-08-2013, 10:44   #20
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
"At the risk of letting myself in for a flame, I am going to go against the conventional wisdom and tell you not to go sailing without your husband. Your goal should be to work together as a team. Sure, you both need to be able to operate the boat independently in an emergency, but you are going to spend way more time sailing together than independently. It's true that you will learn different techniques by sailing with other people. But it's far more important to have your own routine." CaptFrankM


Very sage advice from Captain Frank. Why would you want to sail with strangers when you are preparing to live aboard with your husband? Once you understand the "points of sail,"(however you achieve it) your best experience is time on the water. There is no substitute for sail time if you want to learn and grow. And, continue to build your skills by sailing in higher winds and waves requiring different skill sets. I can't imagine any sailing couple where the man does not want his wife/friend to participate equally since the reality is that most women are reluctant sailors at best. You have a great boat. Sail it! Good luck and good sailing.
I'll have to agree with this. When my son sailed/raced with me, we developed into quite a team.

When my son got a little older girls, cars, and his band became more important so sailing/racing with a new crew was hard, and I never did as well until I started sailing on singlehanded boats.

The husband/wife team is a little different, but it's still the team concept which may even be more important when sailing offshore.
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Old 21-08-2013, 10:46   #21
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

WADR to the last few posts, it has been repeated here and on other sailing forums many times: different people learn in different ways. Not necessarily M vs. W, either.

But we don't know YOU. Or your husband. YOU may like/want/need to take classes with just women, or maybe YOU would like to learn with your husband present, or maybe both of you are better self-taught.

It's all up to you, all we can provide for you are the options available to you. And him. There is no "best", it's all up to you two.

What any of us can do for you is to share our experiences: In our case it was that we sailed on rental boats, then bought a C22 and took four lessons together, three on other boats 27 to 25 feet, then the last one on our own little C22. It was great for US, because it gave us an inkling of "bigger" (relative) boats, but then gave us a whole new feeling of security with the pounding that our small boat could take on a very windy day on SF Bay. Can you tell I still appreciate the experience? And the fact that a guy (me) could actually admit that lessons can help!

We had that trailerable C22 for a few years, a 1981 Catalina 25 (FK/SR) for 12 years and our current C34 for the past 15.

If you haven't yet, you should also get to know these C25 skippers.

Association Forum - Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Good luck, sounds like you have a great start.
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Old 21-08-2013, 10:52   #22
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

Quote:
When my son sailed/raced with me,
two men , different story, men compete and develop that way. Its not ( in general ) the way women think or work.

Quote:
But we don't know YOU. Or your husband. YOU may like/want/need to take classes with just women, or maybe YOU would like to learn with your husband present, or maybe both of you are better self-taught.
Correct, but those of us involved in training can see the issues and hence my advice. Its a sad fact however that few women take practical courses or seek out experiences and as a result few women only courses exist. The next best thing is to learn in a compnay of equal-level people , all striving to do what you are doing , understand more and experience more. Then you tend to get the "were all in one boat" and the skipper has an easier time get the crew up to speed.

Nothing worse then trying to teach people at a certain level, while having widely differences in experience and learning , you either slow to the weakest and loose the brightest or loose the weaker ones

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Old 21-08-2013, 11:02   #23
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

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two men , different story, men compete and develop that way. Its not ( in general ) the way women think or work.


dave
That's mostly true, but this couple could like pop star Pink and her husband motorcycle racer/daredevil Cary Hart. She says they compete at everything:

Pink's ex husband moves back in - Entertainment - BrisbaneTimes
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Old 21-08-2013, 11:04   #24
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Actually, Dave, I've been an ASA instructor for about eight years, as well as teaching OUPV and Masters classes. I've taught men, women, couples and families.

Sure, some women learn better with other women. Some kids learn better with just other kids. But some couples I have taught have excelled because they were a couple. They worked together and pushed each other to go a little further than either thought they could. They also were each other's main cheerleader.

If you just want to learn to sail, then just find a class that makes you feel comfortable. But it doesn't make much sense to me that the best way to learn to work together is to split up.
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Old 21-08-2013, 11:46   #25
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Almost every organisation I have worked for as an Instructor has had a policy of not allowing Married "teams" toearn on the same boat or instructor. It is well known in the education sector that spouses, both male and female, have higher retention and better experiences learning at their own pace and own learning style seperate from their partner.

The romance ofearning together is a myth shared only by a few and is anecdotal. Like holywood romances, it should not be used as a basis for your own learning experience.

The best of all possible worlds, and one that I have seen and participated in first hand, is for a dreaming circumnavigating couple to take classes and do mile building exercises seperately and then take these experiences, with their different view points and perspectives, and bring them together on subsequent cruises that get longer and longer.

In my experience it takes a strong woman and "modern" husband to get the most out of this approach as this approach challenge the male dominance model to cruising.

But then again, many cruisers come to this shared approach after a time spent on the water anyway.

Prepare yourself though as no matter how good a sailor you are ther will still be "pink" and "blue" tasks while cruising. If you are a better diesel mechanic or navigator than your spouse hopefully he will have the cop to release this responsibity.

I for one would love to wash and hang the laundry amd the requisite lack of responisbility for the anchor - many men wont admit it but, except for their ego, would love to let go of many "blue" responsibities.
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Old 21-08-2013, 12:15   #26
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

Foolish,

While I respect your position, I have never worked for an organization that would have the depth of students walking in the door to say to someone that they could not take a class with their spouse. As for it being "well known" in the education sector, I've been in education, in one form or another, for most of my adult life and the only thing I have seen is that it is the instructor's responsibility to ensure that each student is getting the best education they can. To say that spouses with different learning styles should be kept apart would lead one to the ultimate conclusion that all students should be evaluated for learning style and a class should never be scheduled until you have enough students with identical learning styles and levels of experience. Maybe that would work in some markets, but everywhere I have taught, we took our students as we found them and did the best to work with each of them to achieve the best results possible.

However, this is really just an esoteric exercise. As has been pointed out repeatedly here, none of us (OK, most of us, anyway) do not know the OP personally, so we can't say how she and her husband relate in learning style, so it would be inappropriate to say "the best way for YOU to learn to sail" is X or Y.

However, and now at the risk of painting a target on my back and dousing myself with gasoline, I will say that if the OP cannot learn to sail from and with her husband, then the idea that he, she and the kids are going to buy a boat and live aboard - and, I presume, go cruising - is a very bad idea. Please, Awaywego, do NOT take this personally. I am not talking about you - since, as noted above, I don't know you.

But the simple fact is that living on a boat and cruising is a totally different dynamic than living in a house and going off each day to your own lives, coming back in the evening and talking about your day. You have to be each other's friend, support and sounding board. If "she" is afraid to ask "stupid" questions, or "he" can't "take the time" to explain why he does things a certain way - if they can't learn and teach each other - then the possiblity of disaster, either personal or worse, is huge.

The one thing I have learned in my educational career is that the best learning takes place when the student trusts the teacher. The surest way to destroy a student's ability to learn is to try to BS the answer to a question, since it destroys the student's trust. If a wife can't trust her husband, or vice versa, then the ability to work together will be severely damaged.

Of course, this is all just my humble opinion - although my wife (who is also an instructor and near coastal master) might say that my opinions are never humble
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Old 21-08-2013, 12:24   #27
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

I (years ago) took ASA classes thru 104. Already crewed in tons of races, just wanted to be able to charter. It was OK, didn't really learn much. Didn't focus enough on how not to hit the dock, which was my biggest concern with a larger boat.

Best way to learn if you've got some experience? Get out there and make minor mistakes. e.g. 2 hours after buying my boat I got more "don't hit the dock" knowledge than in 2 days of a class. Yes, I understand I need 2-20 more years before I can go all Captain Ron on the thing... but my base point is you got a boat - go sail it. Practice counts for alot. Race experience helps a ton - for me it made the "sailing" part easy.

Maybe discuss with the hubby that you want to skipper that day and use him as your backup. Depending on both of your personalities that may work (may not). If my wife said that she was going to skipper and I should STFU and do what she said, I'd be ecstatic - i.e. she'd get more experience than if I was hovering/coaching.
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Old 21-08-2013, 12:57   #28
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However, and now at the risk of painting a target on my back and dousing myself with gasoline, I will say that if the OP cannot learn to sail from and with her husband, then the idea that he, she and the kids are going to buy a boat and live aboard - and, I presume, go cruising - is a very bad idea. Please, Awaywego, do NOT take this personally. I am not talking about you - since, as noted above, I don't know you.

But the simple fact is that living on a boat and cruising is a totally different dynamic than living in a house and going off each day to your own lives, coming back in the evening and talking about your day. You have to be each other's friend, support and sounding board. If "she" is afraid to ask "stupid" questions, or "he" can't "take the time" to explain why he does things a certain way - if they can't learn and teach each other - then the possiblity of disaster, either personal or worse, is huge.
Now, where did I leave that book of matches...

I suggest having your cake and eating it too. Start with some courses without him, and use then as a springboard for more time on the water together.

I had my wife (who is a teacher) take the lessons from the local sailing center. For a multitude of reasons, the least of which is that teaching sailing is their forte, and it isn't mine. They did the "all woman" crew thing, which turned out to be great, and as an added bonus the students have gotten together a couple of times since to sail.

Plus, any dock scraping was done outside of my knowledge, and more importantly, not to our boat. We manage enough of that stuff ourselves...

But learning to sail (or even the ASA Basic Coastal Cruising) is almost, but not quite, entirely unrelated to cruising. We've worked ourselves up to week long trips, together. This last trip we took was the first time we've put more than a hundred miles under the keel in a trip. We're noobs ourselves, but were learning the cruising parts together. It's baby steps but we're having a blast!

You'll be so glad you did it. Some experiences truly are priceless. Here's a pic from our latest trip, where the dolphins joined us several times. We even saw a tiny baby dolphin with its mom, who looked to be teaching it how to surf the bow. It was only with us for about 30 seconds, but those 30 seconds will be with us forever.

JRM


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Old 21-08-2013, 14:29   #29
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Re: Best Way to Gain Sailing Knowledge/Experience

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Foolish,

While I respect your position, I have never worked for an organization that would have the depth of students walking in the door to say to someone that they could not take a class with their spouse. As for it being "well known" in the education sector, I've been in education, in one form or another, for most of my adult life and the only thing I have seen is that it is the instructor's responsibility to ensure that each student is getting the best education they can. To say that spouses with different learning styles should be kept apart would lead one to the ultimate conclusion that all students should be evaluated for learning style and a class should never be scheduled until you have enough students with identical learning styles and levels of experience. Maybe that would work in some markets, but everywhere I have taught, we took our students as we found them and did the best to work with each of them to achieve the best results possible.

However, this is really just an esoteric exercise. As has been pointed out repeatedly here, none of us (OK, most of us, anyway) do not know the OP personally, so we can't say how she and her husband relate in learning style, so it would be inappropriate to say "the best way for YOU to learn to sail" is X or Y.

However, and now at the risk of painting a target on my back and dousing myself with gasoline, I will say that if the OP cannot learn to sail from and with her husband, then the idea that he, she and the kids are going to buy a boat and live aboard - and, I presume, go cruising - is a very bad idea. Please, Awaywego, do NOT take this personally. I am not talking about you - since, as noted above, I don't know you.

But the simple fact is that living on a boat and cruising is a totally different dynamic than living in a house and going off each day to your own lives, coming back in the evening and talking about your day. You have to be each other's friend, support and sounding board. If "she" is afraid to ask "stupid" questions, or "he" can't "take the time" to explain why he does things a certain way - if they can't learn and teach each other - then the possiblity of disaster, either personal or worse, is huge.

The one thing I have learned in my educational career is that the best learning takes place when the student trusts the teacher. The surest way to destroy a student's ability to learn is to try to BS the answer to a question, since it destroys the student's trust. If a wife can't trust her husband, or vice versa, then the ability to work together will be severely damaged.

Of course, this is all just my humble opinion - although my wife (who is also an instructor and near coastal master) might say that my opinions are never humble

Well, now I can say it officially, for myself, that is . . . welcome to the Forum Capt. Frank. It is more than refreshing to have a cogent voice of reason among our illustrious(?), eclectic members. Well written, well reasoned and well said.
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Old 21-08-2013, 14:49   #30
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@captFrankM

What is your education experience as an instructor? Any physical education for adults?

If you havent experienced the issues with Spouses taking classes together then your lifetime of education didnt involve physical sports but was instead intellectual in nature as this is a well known issue and substantive enough that most quality institutions recognize and adapt to it.

Spouses taking spanish classes together is vastly different from them taking surfing, sailing, wind surfing or kayaking together.

Spouses are grown adults and education centers will always respond to the needs of a client - even if it is detrimental to the clients effective learning potential.
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