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Old 05-01-2011, 02:49   #46
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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Firstly captain Blythe was an excellent royal navy capitan with an exemplary record and the exact opposite to what the movies showed.
His exemplary record entails being subject to 3 more mutinies afterwards
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Old 05-01-2011, 03:22   #47
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Interesting reading about Bligh, which confirms he was a great "Owners' Captain" (Navy interests First!)



From what I can interpret.... all he needed to learn was how to laugh at “recreational complaining”….lol…
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Old 05-01-2011, 03:40   #48
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rum,sodomy and the lash in those days,.............
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Old 05-01-2011, 04:07   #49
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What would you have done differently..??
I would have lied to them Or at least told them that things would get better when we get XXX (and that the alternative would be far worse).........whether you fully beleived it or not

I was in the Cub Scouts (9th St Lukes ) - 3 years, came out with zero badges and then 1 day in the Sea Scouts before I went AWOL (I think they may have stopped looking for me now ). We were never deployed on active service

All training is good (even if not for the reasons intended), I can see that Military training would be useful, especially for those who need a framework to be provided to them and the added confidence from being told they are in charge.

In the private sector just have different tools in motivating folk - as they do have the capacity to say no. or fook off and only limited circumstances where accelerating folk along the Budhist circle of life is considered acceptable...........and to be honest am not really interested in having onboard any crew with a mindset that would be happy to take on a 1000 fuzzy wuzzys with a bayonet - on orders (or following half a shrug). Hell, I was married to one those
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Old 05-01-2011, 04:19   #50
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[QUOTE=boatman61;590788]What would you have done differently..?? /QUOTE]

Nothing. I sailed a Joint Services Nic 55 out of Gib in identical conditions. When it rose to F7 on the nose and the skipper started calling for sail changes requiring 3 crew to go to the bow I thought he was "barking" and why didn't we go to Tarifa? Of course what he knew is that 6 hours later when we were clear of the Pillars of Hercules the wind would settle down for a pleasant 5 day trip with good winds from the stern.

I don't think there is a one solution to fit all and therefore a skipper will often have to use different techniques and styles and a toolbox full of ideas will be useful. As a former Sergeant-Major there is no way I would use a military style in our diving club, a mix of civilian and military indivdiuals. I have seen it tried and all that happens is the civilians just slow down and stop which leads to military peeps becoming even more fustrated, entertaining to watch from the side lines. That said, a good formal briefing at the start of the day explaining:

why, what, where, when and who .....

goes a long way to getting everyone working in the right direction and as a team.

Certainly the wifey won't accept a Sergeant-Major style, but apparently its okay if she does it

Pete
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Old 05-01-2011, 06:07   #51
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The funny thing reading these posts is that many think Military leadership study is about one style of leadership.
Its not.
It studies each style: Authoritarian, Consultative, participative, Laize Fair, etc and works out when its best to use each.

The post about the Captain must be competent in the particular task is a great example of what is NOT necessary.
Many leaders have no indepth knowledge of the intricacies of the task but still have to get it done using competent staff (crew, etc). Sailing is the same, though I take the point that some crew try to take over if they think they know better. Thats a leadership challange.

Also a leader being able to 'take orders'. Well, have a look at many successful small business operators or modern entrepreneurs. Theres many who couldn't be stopped by anyone telling them they are crazy or placing any obstacle in their road. They refuse to be told.

Cruising is a great example of so many different types working: Those big charter boats don't operate in the same way as Mum and Dad; some couples have watches, some so informal I don't know how they operate at all. Some have one way for bright sunny days and some a different way for storms. Treating the paid crew differently than your best mate who visits.
Many cruisers have just retired from a life so intense they are having problems adjusting to Margharitaville - many were very sucessful in a work environment but now they're all at sea.

In all, its a great thing for folks to study, or to brush up on. I was never a great leader, but knowing the theory does help.
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Old 05-01-2011, 06:40   #52
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The big thing I learned from Military leadership, is how to determine the severity of the situation, and how to de-escalate or preventing it from continuing to escalate out of control. In the Bounty Capn Bligh reacted too late to maintain discipline, and attempted to re-establish command way too late. Also it seemed that the crew never "bought into" the importance of the mission. Had He done more to motivate them and bring them on board, the voyage would most likely have turned out differently. (As the voyages that successfully rounded the Capes later proved). The voyages that were successfull had the crew fully believing that they were out to do the impossible, and that they were capable of doing so. They believed in the ship, the Captain, and themselves, and were not afraid of the unknown, or nature. When a crew works as a team and believes in each other they are capable of much greater achievements.
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Old 05-01-2011, 06:56   #53
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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
I would have lied to them Or at least told them that things would get better when we get XXX (and that the alternative would be far worse).........whether you fully beleived it or not
Dave I did not need to lie... I told them the truth which was that once we cleared the funnel and passed Trafalgar it'd die away.... but a frightened man with his woman screaming down below is not listening.... he goes primitive and looses most reasoning ability.
I faced a guy taller and 5st heavier, 6yrs younger who was wired.... my only option was to scare him back to his senses.... didn't have either the time or conditions to face him down... it worked..
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Old 05-01-2011, 07:04   #54
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Hey Boatman61: It's spelled S A R C A S M
Rover88..... it was recognised as such mate... believe me...
Its Spelt..... H A V I N G A L A U G H

The military personal **** was for those younger dudes and draft dodgers who assume civvie street is the norm and ex servicemen are far and few between and all we are capable of is YES SIR.... NO SIR.... CAN I KISS YOUR BUTT SIR.
Dunno about the US... but over here each man from ordinary seaman up is instructed in the basic art of leadership... one never knows what the future brings..
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Old 05-01-2011, 09:25   #55
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Boatman61 - I understand and am always willing to provide a laugh at my expense.
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Old 05-01-2011, 10:08   #56
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Originally Posted by idpnd

His exemplary record entails being subject to 3 more mutinies afterwards
Blythe was commanding one of the ships involved on both the Spithead and Nore mutinies. These were general pay and conditions and affected lots of ships it had nothing tondo with Blythe personally.

( not sure where the third mutiny is )
Dave
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Old 05-01-2011, 12:08   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Blythe was commanding one of the ships involved on both the Spithead and Nore mutinies. These were general pay and conditions and affected lots of ships it had nothing tondo with Blythe personally.
( not sure where the third mutiny is )
Dave
I presume you’re referring to Vice Admiral (Captain, Rear Admiral) William Bligh, and not Sir Charles (Chay) Blyth (I'm unaware of a Captain Blythe).

Captain Bligh suffered two mutinees; the Bounty and the Rum Rebellion in New South Wales.

As Dave notes; the Spithead Mutiny and the Nore Mutiny were against the Admiralty, not him as captain; and during the Nore mutiny, his crew specifically told him that they had no issue with him. In fact, he was one of the very few captains that was not removed from his ship during the Nore Mutiny.
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Old 05-01-2011, 15:31   #58
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I presume you’re referring to Vice Admiral (Captain, Rear Admiral) William Bligh, and not Sir Charles (Chay) Blyth (I'm unaware of a Captain Blythe).

Captain Bligh suffered two mutinees; the Bounty and the Rum Rebellion in New South Wales.

As Dave notes; the Spithead Mutiny and the Nore Mutiny were against the Admiralty, not him as captain; and during the Nore mutiny, his crew specifically told him that they had no issue with him. In fact, he was one of the very few captains that was not removed from his ship during the Nore Mutiny.
Dang, Gordie, there ya go again, letting facts spoil a good argument!

Poor old Bligh really needed a press agent...

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 05-01-2011, 19:19   #59
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Just read a book called The Mind of the Sailor which covered this, but I've taken it back to the library so can't tell you who wrote, but he was a shrink who also sails a lot.
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Old 05-01-2011, 19:27   #60
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Just read a book called The Mind of the Sailor which covered this, but I've taken it back to the library so can't tell you who wrote, but he was a shrink who also sails a lot.
Peter Noble....
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