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Old 01-05-2013, 22:04   #46
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Re: Beating Home Alone and oh so Slow

yeah, using a furled sail to reef is not much good for going upwind - i fitted another heavier forestay behind my furler for hanking on smaller headsails, makes a difference and gives a bit more support to the mast - furler is on a smaller dia cable than i would like. Still, combine headwinds with an unfavourable swell and it doesnt make much difference...
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Old 01-05-2013, 22:21   #47
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Re: Beating Home Alone and oh so Slow

Hi Mathew,

I have sailed on a few swansons, my own 42, a 38 and a 32. I have found them all to be pretty much headsail driven (not sure about the 36, never sailed on one).

I presume your rig is cutter?? Mine is solent rig. When I bought the boat and went through the sails, I found a #3 jib, heavily used. I soon found out why...in the conditions you describe, I furl the main genoa , and put the #3 on the inner forestay. Reef the main as reqd, or drop it entirely. Works.

The #3 is pretty tired, and I am looking at replacement. I will probably go for a direct replacement, plus a larger "blade" jib, so described. I think that inner headsail is very important in going to weather. Don't know how this relates to your cutter rig.

At the end of the day, the s42 is not a good boat going to weather, as you have found. Its forte is as a trade wind sailor. And as to your comments on windage, I concur. Its a big volume 42 footer.

Lee
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Old 01-05-2013, 22:26   #48
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Re: Beating Home Alone and oh so Slow

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For those who sail in parts of the world where some seasons provide consistently strong winds, it's definitely worth thinking about changing to a smaller sail on the furler for those periods.
Yep. We change to an 85% high-clewed jib during the summer when we expect 25 knots true on average days. Amazing how much higher we point with that sail than with the 110% partially furled to 85%.

The yankee owns the furler from late April through September. The lapper gets to rule the roost from October through early April. Works like a charm.
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Old 02-05-2013, 00:42   #49
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Re: Beating Home Alone and oh so Slow

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Hi Mathew,

At the end of the day, the s42 is not a good boat going to weather, as you have found. Its forte is as a trade wind sailor. And as to your comments on windage, I concur. Its a big volume 42 footer.

Lee
Hi Lee, I was hoping you would see this thread and offer some input.

I confess I had to look up what a solent rig was all about (blush!). Sorry.

I'm not sure if it is normal for the S42 or not, but mine has been rigged with dual forestays separated by about 6 inches, so it would be just possible to squeeze in another roller furling jib if I needed to, a kind of quasi solent rig? But I think that's just making life complicated.

No, I will do as hinted and get that staysail up pronto, might get a chance this weekend if the faulty injector is repaired in time (Down to a three cylinder diesel at the moment.. 75HP not 100HP and she feels it! )..
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Old 02-05-2013, 00:47   #50
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Re: Beating Home Alone and oh so Slow

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Yep. We change to an 85% high-clewed jib during the summer when we expect 25 knots true on average days. Amazing how much higher we point with that sail than with the 110% partially furled to 85%.

The yankee owns the furler from late April through September. The lapper gets to rule the roost from October through early April. Works like a charm.
That's a neat solution.

I guess I will learn if the weather here lends itself to that sort of sail swapping. I've been sailing in a 20 foot Austral here for about four years and I have not yet picked the seasonal wind patterns. To make it harder, all the "old salts" around the club are muttering dire stuff about strange weather patterns. Not sure if that is standard "old salt" mutterings or not... I did not qualify for inclusion in their muttered warnings when I sailed a trailer boat.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:17   #51
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Re: Beating Home Alone and oh so Slow

Matthew,

Six inches between the forestays is a bit unusual. Do you have running backstays??

I think having a furler on the forestay, and hanked on sails on the inner stay is the best of both worlds. Use the furled genoa on the foremost stay in light to medium conditions, then switch to the hanked on sails on the inner in heavy. You have the choice of sails on the inner forestay, and the simplicity and reliability of hanks. I am working to having the choice of 4 sails on my inner forestay...110% genoa down to storm jib..

On Banjo, I have dual tracks on the deck. The furler and 110% genoa are sheeted outside the shrouds, on the outer tracks. The other jibs are sheeted inside the shrouds. Obviously, sheeting inside helps in going to weather.

For downwind sailing, I have two poled out headsails...furling genoa, and 110% hanked, both on whisker poles. Works a treat...Banjo is on rails. Whisker poles have forward and aft guys.

Hope this helps your thinking.

Lee
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Old 02-05-2013, 03:17   #52
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Re: Beating Home Alone and oh so Slow

Err... maybe four inches?

And my setup is a bit different...

The jib furler is on the rear forestay. The forward forestay is a brute of a thing, looks more like a mast than a stay, I am not certain, now that I think of it, that it would be possible to hank the storm jib onto it, I had better double check! Maybe the furler is on the wrong stay?

The rig has running backstays with sort industrial strength hyfield levers, with the same setup on the staysail forestay. They work very well and I would recommend them to anyone considering them, though they are very heavy.

The sheets for the genoa run to travellers on the deck beside the cabin, and these can also be used for the yankee when brought forward. Then there are blocks either side of the cabin front, which I think are used for the storm jib, since the staysail has a boom (is that the right term when applied to a jib?) and it has a centre mounted pulley attached to the mast foot.

It's all so CONFUSING!

Thankfully the original owner from ten years ago says he plans to come to Adelaide this year, so I hope for some clarity when he does arrive.

After reading this over my shoulder the Admiral is telling me we should go out this weekend while the wind is light and try to sort out some of these options. I am starting to thing she is right.
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Old 02-05-2013, 03:25   #53
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Re: Beating Home Alone and oh so Slow

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Err... maybe four inches?
Actually, no darn it, might be more than six inches. Had a quick look at the photo from the front of the boat on my CF Gallery, and it has to be at least six inches.
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:01   #54
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Re: Beating Home Alone and oh so Slow

Matthew,

Took a look at your CF photos of your rig. In terms of comments, I am out of my depth, and experience, time to get some of the more experienced members to contribute. But, here goes with my 2 bobs worth..

You look to have a solent stay rig. I presume the Highfield levers are on the bow, tensioning each stay. With each stay ending at masthead, I don't know what your running backstays are doing. Yes the furler looks to be on the wrong stay, should be on the forward stay. Perhaps the previous owner put it on the inner stay for ease of tacking?? Tacking a headsail on a solent rig is a complete PITA. If I am going into a tacking session, I leave the main genoa furled, and raise the #2 genoa on the inner forestay.

At the moment, your forestay looks to be unuseable, apart from supporting the mast.

More photos would help. Foot of the stays, masthead, and running backstays.

I emphasise, get some info from more knowledgable people than I.

BTW, she looks pretty well built...hard to tell from photos, but there is an impression.

Lee
PS Always work out how your boat operates, before making changes. Too often I have rushed in with changes, only to find that the original was right.
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:27   #55
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Re: Beating Home Alone and oh so Slow

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Interesting metaphore in that I prefer cross country skiiing to downhill. I had never connected the two.
Ha, me two, and I sort of get a sense of satisfaction from a good hard bash to windward, as long as my dodger is keeping me dry... Good on you GI, it's great to hear from someone who also likes the challenge of sailing a boat in all conditions, and doesn't automatically take the easiest way out. Not that I blame those who do in this case.

I motor sail when I am being paid to geta boat from A to B, but otherwise I love to sail where I can, This is why my new boat is an old aluminium Petterson warhorse that can really sail to windward through anything that I can stand.

The discussion on effective Roller reefing set up for a variety of winds for windward work is very interesting to me since at some point I need to set the old girl up for shorthanded stuff.

Over the years I have tried and delivered boats with all sorts of rigs and I still haven't worked out the best combination. I don't think it exists for all wind conditions. But I am pretty impressed with a solent on an inner furler. and a light genoa on an outer furler. With luck Jim and Ann Cate can tell us how he goes with this set up on Insatiable II. We had this combo on a 64 foot modern staysail schooner I sailed to south America together with an inner forestay for a storm jib/ staysail, and I think it is probably the best solution at sea. I am just not sure I like the windage at anchor or for berthing, and having to roll up the genoa to tack or gybe in inshore waters, but it wouldn't take to much convincing to get me to fit something like this.

There is absolutely no way I am going back to hank on's unless it is a lot of smaller sails. Big wet sails down below are an impossibility, as is folding them and drying them for storage by myself on a 40 footer. I could handle a hank on staysail that lives on deck under a cover or a storm jib, and a lightweight nylon drifer that can be stuffed in a bag but thats about it.

The traditional cutter needs runners or somesuch, and makes short taking a pain. It can suffer from not enough sail area if it has a yankee, and the staysail is often redundant if a highcut genoa is fitted. In general it is excellent in stronger winds but weaker in the lighter stuff. This rig is ideal on bigger boats, especially with a furler on the staysail. See morgans cloud for some good info on there sails.

I love the idea of some sort of loose luff furler with a big light genoa/code sail/drifter on it that can be dropped and stowed in a self draining foredeck locker in stronger winds. This sail would be perfect for 0-10 knots upwind and more reaching or running. With a sail like this I could have a 95% solent jib on a furler and this would do OK from about 12-25 knots. After that I've got a few reefs in so the runners and removable inner stay+staysail could be set up for heavy conditions, without needing to be touched. This would only leave an awkward gap between the drifter and the Solent. But at least it's in pleasant sailing and the deck should be dry so the genoa shouldn't get put away wet...

Anyway I am keen to hear more about what combinations you end up with. I must say the roller reefing staysail would be pretty appealing to me on a boat like yours if I was on my own. Let us know how it all goes.

Cheers

Ben
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:46   #56
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Re: Beating Home Alone and oh so Slow

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The jib furler is on the rear forestay. The forward forestay is a brute of a thing, looks more like a mast than a stay, I am not certain, now that I think of it, that it would be possible to hank the storm jib onto it, I had better double check! Maybe the furler is on the wrong stay?
This was common a while back. As far as I know they were mainly used down wind or reaching, you had to gybe the sail around the front of the boat, tacking was impossible without dropping the sail and resetting, although with the furler set it might just have been possible to get it to blow though the gap at times. It was also considered redundancy for if the furler died.. remove the offending furler, and dig out the old hank on sails. It's less common now that we have more faith in our furlers. Possibly it's more useful to have a removable solent stay, effectively reversing the positions of the sails.

Quote:
The rig has running backstays with sort industrial strength hyfield levers, with the same setup on the staysail forestay. They work very well and I would recommend them to anyone considering them, though they are very heavy
. Good system. It can be very handy to be able to drop the stay back to the mast for light air stuff

Quote:
since the staysail has a boom (is that the right term when applied to a jib?)
It is, I like a boomed staysail. should be self tacking and pretty easy to handle. just make sure you have some preventers lead back to the cockpit to control the sail shape, and stop the boom from swinging about.

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I am starting to thing she is right.
She is always right!!!
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:55   #57
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Re: Beating Home Alone and oh so Slow

if you want to go to weather, use a 747 or a race boat.

i just got off of a nice 200 mile passage--took us 80 hours of motor on, wind onnose, current running against us at 1.5 kts to 4 kts, depending on locale..

bashing is not fun---is why i had not originally planned on doing this--is a big user of fuel, but ye go somewhere , even tho very slowly. iknew in advance we were going to be bashing--and we did just that.
some seas were big--some flatter, but always the current , always the head winds, until last day. then we got fog.

was a fun trip, if you dont count the bashing and the duration of time to complete this passage.

bashing happens. some folks will try to sail thru, and as they lose way, they will turn on engine.
some will choose to turn on engine at the first part of the journey as the trip is gonna be a bitch and you will need engine. noisey thing......pissd off the cat.

80 hours is a long time to complete such a short passage, but that happens. see m y track in my fb site for my boat..sksolitarybird. is posted--we were 40 miles offshore for a lil bit--was still head wind, only stronger for a bit. current was only 1.5 kts out there, and 4 kts near shore.
freeboard--isa biiig help in this situation--you WANT freeboard to keep water from douching boat with each swell.....is why i have it. a dry passage is a good passage....especilly when bashing into weather..hate bashing.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:16   #58
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Re: Beating Home Alone and oh so Slow

I looked up your boat from what I found it appears to be a true cutter rig. Meaning the mast is back around center of loa. My boat was (just sold) a cutter also 37c. I always had the stay sail rigged on a boom. I sailed solo a lot and with the main and stay tacking is just a wheel turn away. A great option for you would have been full main and stay sail. If that was too much put a reef in the main. Yes it's more work to tack the jib around the stay but if I'm short tacking I leave the jib rolled up all or some of the way depending on wind speed. Anything down from hard on the wind the stay also adds speed when using with the jib. Your boat has lots of options get out and try them you will find what works best for you.
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Old 02-05-2013, 15:31   #59
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Re: Beating Home Alone and oh so Slow

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I looked up your boat .
When you say you looked up the boat, was that from my gallery photos, or is there another source of info out there I should know about? Since the Swanson Enthusiasts group has sort of died through spam I have been dependent on a couple of S42 owners for advice, any other source of info will be VERY helpful!

Matt
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Old 02-05-2013, 15:37   #60
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Re: Beating Home Alone and oh so Slow

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Matthew,

Took a look at your CF photos of your rig. In terms of comments, I am out of my depth, and experience, time to get some of the more experienced members to contribute.
He he, my problem too! Thank goodness for CF!

And remember, YOU are more experienced than ME when it comes to S42s!
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