Back down with the windlass or the snubber?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

No, IMO you (the drop and forget proponent) have an inferior technique, one that fails to recognize that the anchor may have fallen upon a bit of plastic sheeting or a towel or a pair of board shorts (all actual experiences of ours). In such cases, the anchor will never set and when the wind comes up, off you will go, dragging the lot behind you. The anchor involved in our case was also a Supreme, BTW...

It is so Supremely (!) easy to use a bit of power to verify the set that it is rather foolish to not do so.

+1 I’m with you Jim. Seems like a rather large leap of faith using the 'drop and let it set itself’ approach. But I’m all for the “adult beverage” part .

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

While not a rocna owner (supreme for me) I agree.
If you need to do any more than drop it, pour an adult beverage and let the anchor self set where it was dropped you have an inferior anchor and its time to get one that works.

An issue that I ran into was I believe that my modern roll bar anchor dropped onto its back in very soft mud, being soft mud the roll bar just sank and didn’t right it.
I mistakenly took its not setting when I back down on it to it being in just soft soupy mud and it needed soak time.
Well of course about 3 AM we got the unforecasted high winds and it began to drag. I was never in danger as we had lots of room to drag and I was able to move if I needed to so I let it continue trying to let out more and more scope to no avail.

What I should have done in hindsight was reset it when it drug when I backed down. Point being that there are times that just dropping even a modern oversized anchor doesn’t work.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

No, IMO you (the drop and forget proponent) have an inferior technique, one that fails to recognize that the anchor may have fallen upon a bit of plastic sheeting or a towel or a pair of board shorts (all actual experiences of ours). In such cases, the anchor will never set and when the wind comes up, off you will go, dragging the lot behind you. The anchor involved in our case was also a Supreme, BTW...

It is so Supremely (!) easy to use a bit of power to verify the set that it is rather foolish to not do so.

Jim

OK for you and others with small props but for us I believe it would be foolish to do so.

Just putting our fan into gear at 800rpm gets us churning mud and doing 4.5 knots.
65 tonne doing 4.5 knots and then stopping suddenly is load we simply do not wish to put on it.
We did it once checking the engine and box while tied to a berth and were buffeting boats on the other side of the channel and we did it once when we fitted the new anchor and thought something was about to break.
Fishing trawlers have been pulled over and sunk when their nets hook up and the boat simply keeps going so the torque from the engine and loads generated are obviously immense.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

OK for you and others with small props but for us I believe it would be foolish to do so.

Just putting our fan into gear at 800rpm gets us churning mud and doing 4.5 knots.
65 tonne doing 4.5 knots and then stopping suddenly is load we simply do not wish to put on it.
We did it once checking the engine and box while tied to a berth and were buffeting boats on the other side of the channel and we did it once when we fitted the new anchor and thought something was about to break.
Fishing trawlers have been pulled over and sunk when their nets hook up and the boat simply keeps going so the torque from the engine and loads generated are obviously immense.

That sounds convincing, and I think we have to take your word for that.

But just because you are not able for technical reasons to back down on your anchor, does not logically mean that it's OK anchoring technique not to do so. I think Jim and A64 explained it pretty well.

Your anchor may or may not set by itself. But one thing is for sure -- you will never KNOW whether it's set, if you don't back down on it. I personally would never go to sleep lying to an anchor which I didn't know was set or not.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Your anchor may or may not set by itself. But one thing is for sure -- you will never KNOW whether it's set, if you don't back down on it. I personally would never go to sleep lying to an anchor which I didn't know was set or not.

I reckon i know within several minutes if its set.
65 tonne, a lot of windage and a 6 ft deep x 60 ft long draft is affected by whatever wind and current is available and most places we anchor, due to size and space required, have both as we tend to anchor further out..
Doesn't take long for the chain to pull tight and, if it wasn't set, logic says 65 tonne would be on the move.

600+ days continually moving and anchoring
Same technique used
Multiple storms above 50 knots
Not an inch moved.

But, I acknowledge that light, low windage boats probably do need more help.
Especially with dare I say inadequate anchoring gear as many seem prone to have.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

At 65 tonne I am guessing you are correct. [emoji3]

First time I backed down with the supreme on we instantly stopped and almost lost footing and I was fully expecting the telegraph post sized Sampson post to get ripped from the deck.
Won't be doing that again.

This highlights where many skippers use an on/off mindset when setting rather than a safety release tensioning procedure with the brake.

I always pay out and lay chain with the clutch disengaged and play the brake, but always with a safety release when testing hold. (same as playing a fish).

This way you can never shock the windless, or pull up sharp.

Brake bands are easy to service, bearings or deck fittings, not so easy!

[MartinR]

I can see no problem with backing up and setting the anchor with the chain only secured by the windlass. Unless you have a very strong engine, the loads will be well under the SWL of both windlass and chain and much lower than the loads encountered in bad wind conditions.

My windlass for example has a maximum pull of 1000kg. Bollard pull full astern is about 500kg, so something the windlass should handle easily for a short time.(Bollard pull in kg is roughly 10*hp in pounds 20*hp)

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

I reckon i know within several minutes if its set.
65 tonne, a lot of windage and a 6 ft deep x 60 ft long draft is affected by whatever wind and current is available and most places we anchor, due to size and space required, have both as we tend to anchor further out..
Doesn't take long for the chain to pull tight and, if it wasn't set, logic says 65 tonne would be on the move.

600+ days continually moving and anchoring
Same technique used
Multiple storms above 50 knots
Not an inch moved.

But, I acknowledge that light, low windage boats probably do need more help.
Especially with dare I say inadequate anchoring gear as many seem prone to have.

I have no experience with 65 tonne vessels like yours, so I won't comment further on anchoring techniques for your boat. Perhaps what you do is more like the way you do it on a ship. In that case, however, query the necessity of a snubber? Ships don't use them; with my 1/2" chain I also rarely feel the need for a snubber.

One thing I can say, however, is that a good anchor does NOT indeed free you from the necessity of backing down on the anchor, at least if you're in a typical cruising sailboat rather than a 65 tonne motor vessel. A good anchor is more likely to set itself, but will certainly not always set itself. Those of us who use good anchoring technique know very well how often the anchor will seem to be set at first, but will fail the backing down test. There are many possible reasons for this, so for most of us, at least, we are certainly not ready for "adult beverages" just because the anchor is down and the boat is not moving.

[MartinR]

Ships back down and set the anchor.

[a64pilot]

Heavy boats with BIG motors can slip one into reverse, then as she starts to move, back into neutral, then when the slack is taken out, back into reverse. There will be no snatch.
Most often when I anchor there is either wind or current that takes the slack mostly out anyway.
That 65 tons of inertia both keeps her moving, and yet also slows her initial acceleration too, or I bet she is interesting to dock at 4 to 5 knots?

[belizesailor]

A related consideration is the gypsy clutch. I prefer to set mine snug enough to do the job, but slip when loaded too heavily. Ive seen boats with the windlass literally ripped out of the deck...obviously they set their clutch tighter than I do!

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Heavy boats with BIG motors can slip one into reverse, then as she starts to move, back into neutral, then when the slack is taken out, back into reverse. There will be no snatch.

On windless days with no current I will do that and at least stretch the chain out.

Most often when I anchor there is either wind or current that takes the slack mostly out anyway.

exactly and you can feel her grab with the supreme.
They don't slip several boat lengths like a plough.

That 65 tons of inertia both keeps her moving, and yet also slows her initial acceleration too, or I bet she is interesting to dock at 4 to 5 knots?

Very interesting.
Very limited steerage in fwd unless prop wash over the rudder
Very limited steerage in reverse due to the kortz nozzle
And no thrusters.
But she does get instant fwd rev response due to that nozzle and big fan.
You have to fight the urge to do the slow and steady (every time I have I botched it) and instead "Captain Ron " it. ( in at ramming speed and reverse to stop at last moment)
Thankfully due to tankage size we only need to put her in a berth a couple of times a year

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

A related consideration is the gypsy clutch. I prefer to set mine snug enough to do the job, but slip when loaded too heavily. Ive seen boats with the windlass literally ripped out of the deck...obviously they set their clutch tighter than I do!

This is where I get confused trying to understand what some are doing.

I back the cone clutch right off and only use the brake band to slow down the chain running out and set the anchor.

Cone clutches can jam hard, putting heavy strain on windlass.... whereas a brake band lightly tightened with one hand to slow down and stop astern movement, always has additional give...... until you tighten up hard, using both hands.

On my boat, the Red handles control the Brake Bands

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by MartinR

Ships back down and set the anchor.

Exactly!!! it's called SOP or or more correctly prudent seamanship, and usually dependant on the anchorage and type of bottom you will use X amount of thrust/pitch for X amount of time, no ships officer i know of would ever dream of 'drop and forget'......

And we are not talking about tiny 65 tonners here

[Pelagic]

Agree.....
Also, I can never understand how someone can relax, without testing and knowing the limits of their swing room towards the prevailing danger., Then noting that CPA and setting up alarms or Radar lines.